Freedom Of Speech

A forum for the respectful exchange of views on thought-provoking topics, whether sexuality-related or otherwise; please read the guidelines prior to posting.

Forum rules

Welcome to the Intellectual Discussion subforum.

This forum is the place for intellectual discussions, such as philosophical or scientific debates. There are some guidelines that apply specifically to posts in this forum, of which you will be expected to have made yourself aware before participating. They are as follows:

  • Intellectually stimulating topics only. If you can't have a deep discussion about something, it does not belong here.
  • If you're going to post, have something to say. When you make a new thread, write the initial post in a way that provides an introduction to the topic and invites further discussion. You could tell us how you feel and why, but always aim for constructive responses that further a discussion about the ideas involved, rather than a simple list of people's views. (Instead of asking "Are you a vegetarian?", discuss some of the arguments involved.) This guideline likewise applies for responses to topics.
  • Write using good English. That means full sentences with proper capitalisation, punctuation, spelling and grammar. No one is perfect, though; this is not an invitation to criticise others for minor mistakes.
  • Be nice. This is a forum for rational discourse, not flame wars. No one is always right. Be respectful of other people's views and accept that we are all entitled to our own.

These guidelines will be enforced by the moderators based on their best judgement, and anyone who does not take them seriously will lose the privilege of posting here. Spammers will be banned from the entire forum.

Is the direction Freedom of Speech is heading positive or negative?

Negative
11
58%
Positive
3
16%
Neither
5
26%
 
Total votes : 19

Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby Arty » 15th February, 2017, 12:00 pm

Recently I've been noticing a wave of anti-free speech sentiment hidden under a mirage of "combating fascism". This can be seen in the Berkeley University campus protests and the all too well known punching of Richard Spencer, a white nationalist. But these are just a few of the many aggression against those who have strayed too far from the "mainstream narrative". Now, before anyone jumps to conclusions and calling me a fascist, white supremacist ad nauseum, I have to state that I do not at all agree with Richard Spencers views, nor do I agree with Milo Yiannouopolis's views, but I fundamentally believe that issues can be resolved by debating and dialogue, instead of violence. The reason being, is that as soon as we start putting limits on what free speech doesn't protect, and who isn't entitled to it, it gives majority opinion reign on what can be considered "offensive" and "wrong", if we say "fascists" don't deserve freedom of speech, who has the power to classify an opinion as fascist? Because clearly the majority of the things that the mainstream call fascist, aren't even fascist. This leads to the diluting of the word so far that practically anyone outside of mainstream thought who is a bit right of centre can be just called a fascist, and shut down.

Isn't democracy based off freedom of speech, it's "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death the right to say it", not "I disagree with what you have to say, so I will scream, shout and attack you till you stop"?

So my question to everyone would be, do you agree with the silencing of far-right (or far-left I suppose) views that could be considered offensive in today's society a positive trend, or a negative trend?

Personally,
User avatar
Arty
Fialure
 
Posts: 1950
Likes received: 14
Joined: 30th November, 2013, 6:09 pm

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby Pity » 15th February, 2017, 12:29 pm

As you outlined, I do believe that freedom of speech is being reduced by modern, millenial liberals in the name of social justice. A nice majority of the forum knows I love freedom of speech and value it to the core. Unfortunately, freedom of speech only seems to apply to the left-wing and minorities. It is a real shame that intelligent, center-left liberals are incapable of combatting opposing viewpoints with debate due to social justice warriors shutting down events, riotting, and assaulting others.
Image
User avatar
Pity
hotty & disgraced member
 
First name: Marcus
Posts: 3078
Likes received: 485
Joined: 19th July, 2015, 11:50 pm
Location: Apex, NC
Country: United States (us)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby bluesunstorm » 15th February, 2017, 12:32 pm

Freedom of speech just means the government cannot jail or prosecute you for saying something, although there are exceptions in extreme instances. If these men haven't been jailed, their freedom of speech isn't being violated. Punching a neo-Nazi, like punching anyone else, is illegal, but isn't violating his free speech. Milo Y. isn't entitled to speak at universities, it's up to the university in question. Some universities allow him to speak but some don't due to the controversy and/or lack of demand. Holding unpopular opinions and being called out or shamed for it isn't having your freedom of speech violated, and it wasn't that long ago when liberal and progressive viewpoints were the one that were called out and shamed (and still are by many people).

It's common among right-wingers in the modern era to always claim their freedom of speech is being violated, but it isn't. Nobody is entitled to say something and have other people not being allowed to respond negatively towards it. It also doesn't mean companies aren't allowed to fire or reprimand an employee for saying something considered off-color or prejudiced. Right-wingers can blame it on "PC culture" all they want, but people have always had to check what they say or face possible repercussions from society.
I loves Kylie Minogue, rainbows, sprinkles, teddy bears, Lisa Frank, Hello Kitty, pop & dance music, and Lindsay Lohan movies.
User avatar
bluesunstorm
Member
 
First name: Casey
Posts: 687
Likes received: 4
Joined: 15th February, 2013, 4:32 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Country: United States (us)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby Pity » 15th February, 2017, 12:40 pm

Blue, you are not understanding the point. He was not using "freedom of speech" to reference the legal right. He is describing the societal demise of a basic principle.

Punching white nationalists is an example of silencing the dissemination of information and opinions.
Image
User avatar
Pity
hotty & disgraced member
 
First name: Marcus
Posts: 3078
Likes received: 485
Joined: 19th July, 2015, 11:50 pm
Location: Apex, NC
Country: United States (us)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby Arty » 15th February, 2017, 12:44 pm

bluesunstorm wrote:Freedom of speech just means the government cannot jail or prosecute you for saying something, although there are exceptions in extreme instances. If these men haven't been jailed, their freedom of speech isn't being violated. Punching a neo-Nazi, like punching anyone else, is illegal, but isn't violating his free speech. Milo Y. isn't entitled to speak at universities, it's up to the university in question. Some universities allow him to speak but some don't due to the controversy and/or lack of demand. Holding unpopular opinions and being called out or shamed for it isn't having your freedom of speech violated, and it wasn't that long ago when liberal and progressive viewpoints were the one that were called out and shamed (and still are by many people).

It's common among right-wingers in the modern era to always claim their freedom of speech is being violated, but it isn't. Nobody is entitled to say something and have other people not being allowed to respond negatively towards it. It also doesn't mean companies aren't allowed to fire or reprimand an employee for saying something considered off-color or prejudiced. Right-wingers can blame it on "PC culture" all they want, but people have always had to check what they say or face possible repercussions from society.


I don't just mean Freedom of Speech in the legal sense of government censorship, but Freedom of Speech as a philosophical stance that's essential for a healthy democracy. "The government isn't doing the silencing ergo it's okay" isn't a logical argument, so what the you're legally allowed to say what you want? The issue is that those who say what they want are being attacked and assaulted, instead of debated and being told why they're wrong. It's regressive.

Milo isn't entitled to speak at universities? technically that is true, but restricting the freedom for him to express his views by cancelling his speeches and violence is morally wrong in the spirit of western democracy, if not legally.

Your second point, is strange. If I have an opinion, and someone who disagrees with me attacks me because of this, it is my fault, and I shouldn't have voiced my views in public so as not to get attacked? If this was applied through history, civil rights for any minority would have gotten nowhere, you can apply this argument to LGBT activists, Black rights activists, Female equality activists in the 20th century. People in pride marches in the 80's deserved to get attacked by mobs because everyone has always had to face repercussions from straying from the "mainstream opinion" of society?
User avatar
Arty
Fialure
 
Posts: 1950
Likes received: 14
Joined: 30th November, 2013, 6:09 pm

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 15th February, 2017, 1:50 pm

Trump/most of the far-right are not fascists. People need to stop using the word, not just because it's technically inaccurate, but because it devalues liberal arguments and creates the impression among observers that we're mad name-callers.

I'm opposed to the restriction of free speech in all instances (apart from incitement to violence/hate crime/terrorism, etc. as in the UK), and I oppose those protesters who are acting against free speech. Nevertheless, the university has the right to cancel on speakers just as the students have a right to express dissatisfaction with public figure attending the university. I'd prefer them to do this through peaceful means (a petition wouldn't go amiss), obviously.

However, I think it's a bit of a misconception among the right that challenges to free speech are an exclusively 'liberal' thing. Current circumstances make it inevitable that the left are angry, and so it makes sense that they're the ones currently doing the things you're saying. Trump himself is shutting down opposition with just as much zeal as his left-wing detractors, while in 2009 protesters, many of whom were violent, derailed several town-hall meetings detailing the ACA. Right-wingers, in reaction to Obama's presidency, acted much the same as some left-wingers are acting right now. This is a hypocrisy of the left, but it's also a hypocrisy of the right.
Gudrun wrote:

"How many times have I told you? Homosexuality is only to be used for revolutionary purposes!"

Image ImageImage

ImageImageImage
User avatar
JonathanT88
Horny Jonathan of the Homosexual Intifada
 
First name: Jonathan (duh.)
Posts: 4877
Likes received: 393
Joined: 1st June, 2013, 1:19 pm
Location: Scottish Highlands
Country: United Kingdom (gb)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby bluesunstorm » 15th February, 2017, 3:55 pm

Arty wrote:
bluesunstorm wrote:Freedom of speech just means the government cannot jail or prosecute you for saying something, although there are exceptions in extreme instances. If these men haven't been jailed, their freedom of speech isn't being violated. Punching a neo-Nazi, like punching anyone else, is illegal, but isn't violating his free speech. Milo Y. isn't entitled to speak at universities, it's up to the university in question. Some universities allow him to speak but some don't due to the controversy and/or lack of demand. Holding unpopular opinions and being called out or shamed for it isn't having your freedom of speech violated, and it wasn't that long ago when liberal and progressive viewpoints were the one that were called out and shamed (and still are by many people).

It's common among right-wingers in the modern era to always claim their freedom of speech is being violated, but it isn't. Nobody is entitled to say something and have other people not being allowed to respond negatively towards it. It also doesn't mean companies aren't allowed to fire or reprimand an employee for saying something considered off-color or prejudiced. Right-wingers can blame it on "PC culture" all they want, but people have always had to check what they say or face possible repercussions from society.


I don't just mean Freedom of Speech in the legal sense of government censorship, but Freedom of Speech as a philosophical stance that's essential for a healthy democracy. "The government isn't doing the silencing ergo it's okay" isn't a logical argument, so what the you're legally allowed to say what you want? The issue is that those who say what they want are being attacked and assaulted, instead of debated and being told why they're wrong. It's regressive.

Milo isn't entitled to speak at universities? technically that is true, but restricting the freedom for him to express his views by cancelling his speeches and violence is morally wrong in the spirit of western democracy, if not legally.

Your second point, is strange. If I have an opinion, and someone who disagrees with me attacks me because of this, it is my fault, and I shouldn't have voiced my views in public so as not to get attacked? If this was applied through history, civil rights for any minority would have gotten nowhere, you can apply this argument to LGBT activists, Black rights activists, Female equality activists in the 20th century. People in pride marches in the 80's deserved to get attacked by mobs because everyone has always had to face repercussions from straying from the "mainstream opinion" of society?

People have been attacked and assaulted for saying things on both sides of the spectrum throughout history. Most people aren't physically attacked for what they. I'm not sure what you're complaining about exactly. People like Milo do express their views in public, and many people call him out for being ignorant. Then on the other hand, you have the far-right/alt-right using incendiary language against the left. Both sides are using free speech, so I don't see the problem.

How is it regressive for not having tolerance for hate speech, stereotyping, scapegoating directed towards women and minorities? People are allowed to be very vocally critical of these viewpoints and protest. Most of these critics don't punch out neo-Nazis and vandalize property while doing it. Just because someone's particular ideology and words may be becoming increasing unpopular and they're criticized for it doesn't mean their free speech is being violated. It's inane to say that any and every point of view needs to be respected and given a platform from places like universities under the guise of freedom of speech, and that goes for various viewpoints on both ends of the spectrum.
I loves Kylie Minogue, rainbows, sprinkles, teddy bears, Lisa Frank, Hello Kitty, pop & dance music, and Lindsay Lohan movies.
User avatar
bluesunstorm
Member
 
First name: Casey
Posts: 687
Likes received: 4
Joined: 15th February, 2013, 4:32 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Country: United States (us)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby Pity » 15th February, 2017, 4:16 pm

@Blue, alt-righters can call liberals any name in the book. Online insulting does not restrict anyone's feedom of speech. Riotting, trashing businesses, and assaulting Trump supporters does and was all in the name of keeping people's feelings safe from Milo Y.

It is regressive for not debating with fact and instead whining on the internet and abusing people with different viewpoints. Rather than, say, setting up a speech deconstructing a conservative's view, regressives throw tantrums and riot. If one disagrees with a white nationalist, communist, environmentalist speaker, he or she should simply not attend.

I would, with certainty, say that Milo Y., Richard Spencer, and any other political contrarian deserves a platform on which to speak freely. College is a setting for growth, learning, and open-mindedness; it is not a place where regressives reject opinion and claim it is hate speech. The modern liberals, which I assume is a title you wear, cannot function in the real world with an attitude of intolerance.
Image
User avatar
Pity
hotty & disgraced member
 
First name: Marcus
Posts: 3078
Likes received: 485
Joined: 19th July, 2015, 11:50 pm
Location: Apex, NC
Country: United States (us)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby bluesunstorm » 15th February, 2017, 4:38 pm

Pity wrote:@Blue, alt-righters can call liberals any name in the book. Online insulting does not restrict anyone's feedom of speech. Riotting, trashing businesses, and assaulting Trump supporters does and was all in the name of keeping people's feelings safe from Milo Y.

It is regressive for not debating with fact and instead whining on the internet and abusing people with different viewpoints. Rather than, say, setting up a speech deconstructing a conservative's view, regressives throw tantrums and riot. If one disagrees with a white nationalist, communist, environmentalist speaker, he or she should simply not attend.

I would, with certainty, say that Milo Y., Richard Spencer, and any other political contrarian deserves a platform on which to speak freely. College is a setting for growth, learning, and open-mindedness; it is not a place where regressives reject opinion and claim it is hate speech. The modern liberals, which I assume is a title you wear, cannot function in the real world with an attitude of intolerance.

Most people don't vandalize businesses or turn to violence though. I'm not defending illicit acts, but simply protesting someone's viewpoints also falls under freedom of speech. Alt-right individuals have protested and disrupted things they don't agree with also, like feminist events. No institution should feel obligated to give anyone a platform to speak. Universities are often more liberal, although there are plenty where a leftist wouldn't be welcomed. I've heard plenty of right-wingers speak and I don't have to respect their viewpoints and neither does anyone else. People have had constructive conversations with them and it goes nowhere. I don't care if I'm "intolerant" for not wanting to hear what they have to say, because I've heard it so often and it just makes me nauseated. They're given plenty of platforms to speak and aren't "silenced", regardless if they say to the contrary. People have a right to criticize and protest what they have to say. The idea that universities should be required to give neo-Nazis and eugenicists platforms to speak under the guise of fairness/equality/free speech is not going to convince me; I'll leave it up to each individual university to decide who they want to permit to speak, and they can deal with any controversy it causes though. People have protested controversial figures speaking in public throughout history and wanting controversial material banned, you act like that's something liberals just invented.
I loves Kylie Minogue, rainbows, sprinkles, teddy bears, Lisa Frank, Hello Kitty, pop & dance music, and Lindsay Lohan movies.
User avatar
bluesunstorm
Member
 
First name: Casey
Posts: 687
Likes received: 4
Joined: 15th February, 2013, 4:32 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Country: United States (us)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby Arty » 15th February, 2017, 5:44 pm

bluesunstorm wrote:
Pity wrote:@Blue, alt-righters can call liberals any name in the book. Online insulting does not restrict anyone's feedom of speech. Riotting, trashing businesses, and assaulting Trump supporters does and was all in the name of keeping people's feelings safe from Milo Y.

It is regressive for not debating with fact and instead whining on the internet and abusing people with different viewpoints. Rather than, say, setting up a speech deconstructing a conservative's view, regressives throw tantrums and riot. If one disagrees with a white nationalist, communist, environmentalist speaker, he or she should simply not attend.

I would, with certainty, say that Milo Y., Richard Spencer, and any other political contrarian deserves a platform on which to speak freely. College is a setting for growth, learning, and open-mindedness; it is not a place where regressives reject opinion and claim it is hate speech. The modern liberals, which I assume is a title you wear, cannot function in the real world with an attitude of intolerance.

Most people don't vandalize businesses or turn to violence though. I'm not defending illicit acts, but simply protesting someone's viewpoints also falls under freedom of speech. Alt-right individuals have protested and disrupted things they don't agree with also, like feminist events. No institution should feel obligated to give anyone a platform to speak. Universities are often more liberal, although there are plenty where a leftist wouldn't be welcomed. I've heard plenty of right-wingers speak and I don't have to respect their viewpoints and neither does anyone else. People have had constructive conversations with them and it goes nowhere. I don't care if I'm "intolerant" for not wanting to hear what they have to say, because I've heard it so often and it just makes me nauseated. They're given plenty of platforms to speak and aren't "silenced", regardless if they say to the contrary. People have a right to criticize and protest what they have to say. The idea that universities should be required to give neo-Nazis and eugenicists platforms to speak under the guise of fairness/equality/free speech is not going to convince me; I'll leave it up to each individual university to decide who they want to permit to speak, and they can deal with any controversy it causes though. People have protested controversial figures speaking in public throughout history and wanting controversial material banned, you act like that's something liberals just invented.


I never said protesting someone is bad, but violent protesting and down right assault is definitely not under the umbrella term of "protesting" :facepalm2: . And why shouldn't insitutions give everyone a right to a platform? that eliminates debate, discussion and transfer of ideas and encourages the leftist echo chambers that exist today, that's not an environment of progress and national unity...

Censoring controversial materials isn't a recent invention, it's the bane of progress, and the fact that you defend it and outwardly say you don't care if you're bigoted over opinions that aren't your own just goes to show the problem with millennial liberal mentality, thankyou so much for just being a walking stereotype, it helped illustrate my argument. By "Neo nazi's speaking in campuses" I'll assume you meant Milo, and again, you just confirmed what I said when I wrote that Liberals just call people they disagree with Neo nazi's to silence debate and opposition, Milo has spoken out against white supremacy multiple times.
User avatar
Arty
Fialure
 
Posts: 1950
Likes received: 14
Joined: 30th November, 2013, 6:09 pm

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby TheBrunswickian » 15th February, 2017, 6:46 pm

Say whatever you like, but you're not allowed to get upset when I call you out/call you a racist/tell you not to say it. Because then you're oppressing my right to free speech.

In Australia we don't actually have a constitutional protection on freedom of speech, and we have laws that actually lay out what you cannot say. Such as Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act. Under that you cannot: say or do anything to "offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or a group of people ... because of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the other person or of some or all of the people in the group." And conservatives are desperately trying to repeal it, even though the following Section 18D lays out a whole bunch of exceptions to the rule.
House Cup 2016 - Team Westeros
House Cup 2017 - Team Lion King



Image
User avatar
TheBrunswickian
Data Collector, Community Ambassador
 
First name: Jesse
Posts: 2857
Likes received: 346
Joined: 30th January, 2014, 11:49 pm
Location: Melbourne
Country: Australia (au)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby bluesunstorm » 15th February, 2017, 7:18 pm

Arty wrote:
bluesunstorm wrote:
Pity wrote:@Blue, alt-righters can call liberals any name in the book. Online insulting does not restrict anyone's feedom of speech. Riotting, trashing businesses, and assaulting Trump supporters does and was all in the name of keeping people's feelings safe from Milo Y.

It is regressive for not debating with fact and instead whining on the internet and abusing people with different viewpoints. Rather than, say, setting up a speech deconstructing a conservative's view, regressives throw tantrums and riot. If one disagrees with a white nationalist, communist, environmentalist speaker, he or she should simply not attend.

I would, with certainty, say that Milo Y., Richard Spencer, and any other political contrarian deserves a platform on which to speak freely. College is a setting for growth, learning, and open-mindedness; it is not a place where regressives reject opinion and claim it is hate speech. The modern liberals, which I assume is a title you wear, cannot function in the real world with an attitude of intolerance.

Most people don't vandalize businesses or turn to violence though. I'm not defending illicit acts, but simply protesting someone's viewpoints also falls under freedom of speech. Alt-right individuals have protested and disrupted things they don't agree with also, like feminist events. No institution should feel obligated to give anyone a platform to speak. Universities are often more liberal, although there are plenty where a leftist wouldn't be welcomed. I've heard plenty of right-wingers speak and I don't have to respect their viewpoints and neither does anyone else. People have had constructive conversations with them and it goes nowhere. I don't care if I'm "intolerant" for not wanting to hear what they have to say, because I've heard it so often and it just makes me nauseated. They're given plenty of platforms to speak and aren't "silenced", regardless if they say to the contrary. People have a right to criticize and protest what they have to say. The idea that universities should be required to give neo-Nazis and eugenicists platforms to speak under the guise of fairness/equality/free speech is not going to convince me; I'll leave it up to each individual university to decide who they want to permit to speak, and they can deal with any controversy it causes though. People have protested controversial figures speaking in public throughout history and wanting controversial material banned, you act like that's something liberals just invented.


I never said protesting someone is bad, but violent protesting and down right assault is definitely not under the umbrella term of "protesting" :facepalm2: . And why shouldn't insitutions give everyone a right to a platform? that eliminates debate, discussion and transfer of ideas and encourages the leftist echo chambers that exist today, that's not an environment of progress and national unity...

Censoring controversial materials isn't a recent invention, it's the bane of progress, and the fact that you defend it and outwardly say you don't care if you're bigoted over opinions that aren't your own just goes to show the problem with millennial liberal mentality, thankyou so much for just being a walking stereotype, it helped illustrate my argument. By "Neo nazi's speaking in campuses" I'll assume you meant Milo, and again, you just confirmed what I said when I wrote that Liberals just call people they disagree with Neo nazi's to silence debate and opposition, Milo has spoken out against white supremacy multiple times.

The neo-Nazi I was referring to was the guy who was punched. I wasn't defending, and I don't think any rational person was, violent protests. My issue is with the term "free speech". It's a legal term in most cases, and someone being criticized, called ignorant, or not given a speaking platform at a university isn't having it violated. If you want to say something, then stand by it, because people have a right to criticize it and protest. I'm not defending censorship either, and these idiots aren't being censored. Private companies and univiersities aren't required to give them platforms if their views go against their values. Just like Chik-Fli-A, Bob Jones University, and churches don't have to give feminists and LGBT-rights advocates a platform.
I loves Kylie Minogue, rainbows, sprinkles, teddy bears, Lisa Frank, Hello Kitty, pop & dance music, and Lindsay Lohan movies.
User avatar
bluesunstorm
Member
 
First name: Casey
Posts: 687
Likes received: 4
Joined: 15th February, 2013, 4:32 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Country: United States (us)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby Arty » 16th February, 2017, 5:06 am

TheBrunswickian wrote:Say whatever you like, but you're not allowed to get upset when I call you out/call you a racist/tell you not to say it. Because then you're oppressing my right to free speech.

In Australia we don't actually have a constitutional protection on freedom of speech, and we have laws that actually lay out what you cannot say. Such as Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act. Under that you cannot: say or do anything to "offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate another person or a group of people ... because of the race, colour or national or ethnic origin of the other person or of some or all of the people in the group." And conservatives are desperately trying to repeal it, even though the following Section 18D lays out a whole bunch of exceptions to the rule.


I never said that people shouldn't call racists out, or that they shouldn't call bad ideas out, that's what I'm encouraging, damn it, instead of just crying about it and shutting down the idea. No one on this thread has said anything along those lines so I don't really understand what you're trying to say here.

It's quite disconcerting that a modern democracy doesn't have a foundation for Freedom of Speech, I understand restricting speech that encourages violence or terrorism ect ect, but again that's a problem in the left as well as the right (do you remember the BLM protesters chanting "we want dead cops").

bluesunstorm wrote:The neo-Nazi I was referring to was the guy who was punched. I wasn't defending, and I don't think any rational person was, violent protests. My issue is with the term "free speech". It's a legal term in most cases, and someone being criticized, called ignorant, or not given a speaking platform at a university isn't having it violated. If you want to say something, then stand by it, because people have a right to criticize it and protest. I'm not defending censorship either, and these idiots aren't being censored. Private companies and univiersities aren't required to give them platforms if their views go against their values. Just like Chik-Fli-A, Bob Jones University, and churches don't have to give feminists and LGBT-rights advocates a platform.


I'm not sure if any of you people actually read what I said, I encouraged criticizing bad ideas or opinions you disagree with,that was the main point of my argument. also calling someone ignorant, while obviously I never said should be stopped, I think is a bit pointless since it doesn't bring the conversation anywhere and practically stops the discussion, how many opinions are you going to sway by calling someone ignorant? Non. Your whole argument leads on the premise that I think criticizing people is wrong and against free speech which is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

On your point of Universities,(most) universities receive public tax payer money, and as such have no right to dictate who can or can not speak at a University from a moral sense. Americans of all political ideologies pay taxes, so why should public universities that use those taxes push forward a solely left wing, illiberal stance on matters?

I don't see what sort of credible platform chick-a-fil-a has that would make feminists want to use it as a way to push the feminist message, but private companies obviously don't use public funds and so don't really have any obligation, in my eyes, to give anyone a platform, other than perhaps a moral obligation in the spirit of free speech, but then again they're a bloody chicken restaurant so this can't even be made into a credible analogy... Lastly, churches aren't exactly known as a place for progressive thought, so every one of those example you've used don't even make sense in the grand scheme of things.
User avatar
Arty
Fialure
 
Posts: 1950
Likes received: 14
Joined: 30th November, 2013, 6:09 pm

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby bluesunstorm » 16th February, 2017, 3:43 pm

Calling ideas "ignorant" is often warranted, especially when those ideas seek to limit the rights of others. I don't think it makes me a bigot if I don't treat the opinions of someone who's a neo-Nazi (Richard Spencer) as equal or worthy of wasting my time debating. It's not like people with extreme viewpoints are likely to ever change them anyway, no matter how logical, rational, or factual a counterpoint is. I'm not going to treat the advocation of "peaceful ethnic cleansing" and "gay marriage shouldn't be legal because gay men aren't interested in monogamy anyway" as equal to any ordinary opinion. The last opinion ignores gay women, is a straight man speaking on behalf of gay men, and seeks to limit equal civil rights. That's an aspect of this "freedom of speech" argument I have an issue with - people are "intolerant" if they don't want to entertain opinions like these or see them as equal/normal, especially when said opinions promote social inequity, discrimination, white supremacy, stereotyping, scapegoating, etc.
I loves Kylie Minogue, rainbows, sprinkles, teddy bears, Lisa Frank, Hello Kitty, pop & dance music, and Lindsay Lohan movies.
User avatar
bluesunstorm
Member
 
First name: Casey
Posts: 687
Likes received: 4
Joined: 15th February, 2013, 4:32 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Country: United States (us)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby Example » 16th February, 2017, 4:38 pm

you can say whatever you want
just be ready for the consequences after
Image
User avatar
Example
Moderator
 
First name: Kyler
Posts: 2722
Likes received: 419
Joined: 25th April, 2011, 10:25 pm
Location: vancouver
Country: Canada (ca)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby Pity » 16th February, 2017, 4:54 pm

bluesunstorm wrote:I don't think it makes me a bigot if I don't treat the opinions of someone who's a neo-Nazi (Richard Spencer) as equal or worthy of wasting my time debating.


That literally makes you a bigot by definition. No one is saying you have to debate him, but you shouldn't, as an alternative, advocate for his appearances being shut down just because you disagree.

bluesunstorm wrote:People are "intolerant" if they don't want to entertain opinions like these or see them as equal/normal, especially when said opinions promote social inequity, discrimination, white supremacy, stereotyping, scapegoating, etc.


No, people are intolerant when they proactively try to prevent the vocalization of said opinions, no matter how "racist" or "discriminatory" they may be. If you don't want to hear a speech about "peaceful ethnic cleansing," don't attend it.

True liberals may not agree with what one has to say but will defend to the death the right to say it.
Image
User avatar
Pity
hotty & disgraced member
 
First name: Marcus
Posts: 3078
Likes received: 485
Joined: 19th July, 2015, 11:50 pm
Location: Apex, NC
Country: United States (us)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby Togetik » 16th February, 2017, 7:12 pm

The only people complaining about free speech in the western world are right wingers who either don't understand it, or are using it disingenuously.

You do not have a right to be listened to, accepted or given a platform for your speech. You do have a right to your own opinions, you don't have the right to be free from consequences of said opinions.

To claim otherwise is literally the antithesis of free speech.
User avatar
Togetik
Member
 
Posts: 591
Likes received: 81
Joined: 5th February, 2016, 11:24 pm
Country: Australia (au)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby Pity » 16th February, 2017, 8:36 pm

Togetik wrote:The only people complaining about free speech in the western world are right wingers who either don't understand it, or are using it disingenuously.

You do not have a right to be listened to, accepted or given a platform for your speech. You do have a right to your own opinions, you don't have the right to be free from consequences of said opinions.

To claim otherwise is literally the antithesis of free speech.


You and others are totally missing the point. Conservatives, of course, do not have the right to be listened to. With this, you have the right not to listen to them. Fair enough?

The point of this thread and the source of our fear of the diminishing value of freedom of speech stems from the consistent attitude from the modern left of proactively silencing contrarians. Violently rioting to protest a conservative speaker shows current liberals do not value free speech. Attacking Trump supporters for wearing a "Make America Great Again" hat is not liberalism, it is authoritarianism.
Image
User avatar
Pity
hotty & disgraced member
 
First name: Marcus
Posts: 3078
Likes received: 485
Joined: 19th July, 2015, 11:50 pm
Location: Apex, NC
Country: United States (us)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 16th February, 2017, 9:18 pm

I think the issue is many right wingers misinterpret the right to freedom of speech as the right to be a cunt.
Twink enthusiast
User avatar
Unseasoned Chicken
Is shaking
 
First name: Ethan
Posts: 4016
Likes received: 648
Joined: 4th November, 2015, 3:49 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Country: Australia (au)

Re: Freedom Of Speech

Unread postby Pity » 16th February, 2017, 9:50 pm

Ω wrote:I think the issue is many right wingers misinterpret the right to freedom of speech as the right to be a cunt.


Well, it is. :dunno:
Image
User avatar
Pity
hotty & disgraced member
 
First name: Marcus
Posts: 3078
Likes received: 485
Joined: 19th July, 2015, 11:50 pm
Location: Apex, NC
Country: United States (us)

Next

Recently active
Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 10 guests