Corporate and personal income taxes

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Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Dolly » 19th February, 2017, 11:55 am

Discuss your views on personal income and corporate taxes here! What should they be? Should we lower or raise them? Is it moral to have taxes at all?


Without deductions, the US has the third highest corporate tax in the world at 35% (excluding state taxes!), however, the effective tax rate is 27.9% (with deductions and loop holes)*. In the US, the federal corporate income tax rates are as follows*:
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I believe the corporate income tax should be drastically lowered to encourage the growth of small businesses and entice foreign companies to headquarter in the United States, providing more jobs.

Ideally, the tax rates would be as follows, regardless of income:
20% - Hires both Americans and foreigners. Example: Apple Inc.
15% - More than 500 employees and exclusively hires Americans. Example: Books-A-Million, Inc.
10% - Less than 500 employees and exclusively hires Americans. Example: Grandpa Rich's Pork, LLC.

I would like to see tax loop holes closed and an end to corporate tax credits to ensure all corporations, without regard to size or income, pay their fair share of taxes. Currently, American corporations are moving to countries like Panama and Ireland due to our regulations and tax rates. By lowing tax rates, they would be more apt to stay and invest. This would also make the US an attractive country for foreign countries to move to.

Personal tax rates heavily vary as there are multiple brackets (single, joint, married but separate, or head of household) and some states do not have an income tax (Florida). Current federal tax rates are estimated to be as follows*:
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Ideally, the federal personal income tax rates would be 10% across the board.

With more money to spend, Americans will consume more.

Discuss below and add your own ideal tax rates! This is all based on the United States and I do not know the circumstances of foreign countries.
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 19th February, 2017, 2:26 pm



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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby TeenageGaymer » 19th February, 2017, 11:18 pm

"By the way, when I say cut taxes, I don't mean fiddle with the code. I mean abolish the income tax and the IRS, and replace them with nothing." - Ron Paul
I love Paul so much, no doubt we would be living in a much better nation if he was elected
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 20th February, 2017, 5:02 am

TeenageGaymer wrote:"By the way, when I say cut taxes, I don't mean fiddle with the code. I mean abolish the income tax and the IRS, and replace them with nothing." - Ron Paul
I love Paul so much, no doubt we would be living in a much better nation if he was elected

A nation with unmaintained public infrastructure, no education system, public healthcare or law enforcement without those taxes!
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Tim. » 20th February, 2017, 6:10 am

Taxes are important. We all live in a society, and we should all pay our way. We all benefit from infrastructure, emergency services, healthcare, education, etc.
Flat tax rates are pretty stupid imo, especially for personal income tax. Flat tax rates disproportionately affect the poor. I think our tax system here in Australia is quite reasonable. It has a large tax free bracket which is good for those on low incomes to maximise the amount of money they have personally and taxes high earnings quite heavily, which is only fair imo. Personally I would probably add another tax bracket on the top for those on really high incomes. 50 cents to the dollar for over $300,000 maybe. Pasted below are the Australian tax rates.

Taxable income Tax on this income
$0 – $18,200 Nil
$18,201– $37,000 19c for each $1 over $18,200
$37,001 - $87,000 $3,572 plus 32.5c for each $1 over $37,000
$87,001 - $180,000 $19,822 plus 37c for each $1 over $87,000
$180,001 and over* $54,232 plus 45c for every $1 over $180,000
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Dolly » 20th February, 2017, 8:45 am

TeenageGaymer wrote:"By the way, when I say cut taxes, I don't mean fiddle with the code. I mean abolish the income tax and the IRS, and replace them with nothing." - Ron Paul
I love Paul so much, no doubt we would be living in a much better nation if he was elected


As much as I agree with this morally, taxes are required for any functioning society. I feel like my ideal personal income tax of a flat rate of 10% is perfectly low enough.
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Nerolunar » 20th February, 2017, 9:35 am

Yup, taxes are definitely necessary for a country to function. It's fair that each individual gives a percentage of their income to strengthen society as a whole. Things such as education, healthcare, proper police force etc. gives the people a good foundation which they can work upon, creating even more value for the society by developing a strong workforce to trade services with other countries.

With that said, I am strongly in favor of lowering or even removing corporate taxes entirely. By encouraging more competition in the private sector we will develop new technologies(both in science but also humanitarian) that also benefits society, simply because people will want to outclass eachother. The private sector is simply more efficient and can hire more people, lifting people out of welfare and poverty.

We are close to achieving this balance between private and public here, but the private sector is just wayy too weak right now. The public has secured monopoly on some services that would benefit from a little competition so as to not stagnate.

Progressive income tax is fine. I view it as a way for fortunate individuals to give back to the system so that other people have the opportunity to achieve and to support upcoming generations.
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby bluesunstorm » 24th February, 2017, 9:50 pm

I don't agree with the 10% flat tax proposal at all. It will likely mean that more social services/safety nets/benefits will have to be cut, and it will end up hurting low-income individuals and families, while the 1%, and those close to it, have even more disposable income to spend at Neiman Marcus and Cartier. Just because someone's in the lowest income bracket doesn't mean that they don't work as hard as someone making hundreds of thousands or millions a year, and in many cases they work harder and have to do the drudgery. I don't think the current progressive tax system is unreasonable at all, and the wealthy always end up finding ways to get deductions anyway. A single person and family can only consume so much, then they just start hoarding money in banks, and that doesn't make the economy work better for the common people.
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Togetik » 24th February, 2017, 10:37 pm

I don't really feel like any discussion of taxes should be rooted in fairness, because you get a lot of people thinking they pay more than their fair share or whatever. A flat rate disproportionately harms the poor and leaves the rich better off, and a lot of discussion around how much the rich pay is muddied by the scale of money not being within normal people's frame of reference.

If a billionaire is earning a million a year and is taxed 40% of that, it seems like a lot but functionally means very little to them.

I'm very much against the idea that the free market will sort everything out if we let it go hog wild because that's an observably false idea- look at the current industries with similar situations. That sort of economic idea doesn't breed healthy competition, it breeds companies only out for profit who can only compete with other companies out with profit, the rights of the consumer are thrown out to keep competitive with other companies willing to throw them out quicker than the rest
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Dolly » 24th February, 2017, 11:47 pm

A man making $1,000,000 pays $100,000 in income tax. A man making $100,000 pays $10,000 in income taxes. A man making $10,000 pays $1,000 in income tax. They are all paying their fair share; the rich are still paying more.
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 24th February, 2017, 11:54 pm

Technically fair but not really. $1000 to someone who only earns $10,000 could be the difference between putting food on the table or starving, or being able to make rent. For someone earning $1,000,000 yes $100,000 is a fair amount but it won't have such negative impacts on there lives, they'd still have $900,000 to live with. Considering that the extremely rich have so many ways to minimise or avoid taxes it's likely they wouldn't even be paying the full 10% making it even more unfair.
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby bluesunstorm » 1st March, 2017, 1:32 pm

That's a good point that a $1,000 income tax would put more stress on someone making $10,000 a year (or a $2,000 income tax on someone/a family making $20,000 a year), but a millionaire will feel the effects far less, even with substantially higher taxes. The income tax for those making less than $10,000 a year should be substantially lowered, possibly to zero. It should also be lowered to 10% or less for those making less than $20,000 a year. That income range is struggling in this day and age, especially working full-time.
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Arty » 11th March, 2017, 2:19 pm

The argument "taxing 100,000 from someone who earns 1,000,000 won't affect them that much" is an argument I never understood. Who are you to dictate what percentage of someones own income they have earned themselves through merit is "enough" for them? I agree that 1,000 from someone who earns 1,000 has a much larger affect on them, that's why I believe there should be a high tax threshold and a flat tax rate of 15-20%. I understand tax is necessary but "progressive" tax income isn't fair. the fact the tax system is percentile is what makes it fair, everyone pays the same percentage of their income.

The top 1% pay almost 50% of federal taxes in America. the top 20% pay 83%.
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 12th March, 2017, 6:43 am

Arty wrote:The argument "taxing 100,000 from someone who earns 1,000,000 won't affect them that much" is an argument I never understood. Who are you to dictate what percentage of someones own income they have earned themselves through merit is "enough" for them? I agree that 1,000 from someone who earns 1,000 has a much larger affect on them, that's why I believe there should be a high tax threshold and a flat tax rate of 15-20%. I understand tax is necessary but "progressive" tax income isn't fair. the fact the tax system is percentile is what makes it fair, everyone pays the same percentage of their income.

The top 1% pay almost 50% of federal taxes in America. the top 20% pay 83%.

You are right the progressive tax system is economically unfair but it is socially fair.
At face value it looks horribly unfair that the top 1% has to cough up 50% of taxes but in the grand scheme of the country's economy it is necessary. Typically the top 1% only spend about 10-15% of their income meaning the rest is saved in trust funds and overseas bank accounts etc. all these are huge leakages to the economy It's money that is not making its way back into the economy. Now it might still seem unfair that a minority of extremely rich should be the main contributors to tax that effects the majority of the population especially since they earned that money themselves. Wrong. The top 1% wouldn't be rich without the contribution of everyone else in the economy, the thousands they usually employ, the millions who purchase their products etc. So yes it might seem 'unfair' but it is integral to the running of a country and its why the system is used it the majority of nations in the world. I read somewhere that the the top 60 richest people have more money than the poorest 50% I'd say that high tax rate is hardly an inconvenience on them.
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Togetik » 12th March, 2017, 6:53 am

Arty wrote:The top 1% pay almost 50% of federal taxes in America. the top 20% pay 83%.


The top 1% owned 35% of all financial assets in the US in 2007, with the top 20% owning 80% of all financial assets.

This has only grown since then.
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Arty » 12th March, 2017, 12:51 pm

Togetik wrote:
Arty wrote:The top 1% pay almost 50% of federal taxes in America. the top 20% pay 83%.


The top 1% owned 35% of all financial assets in the US in 2007, with the top 20% owning 80% of all financial assets.

This has only grown since then.


1% own 35% of all assets and pay 50% of taxes, what's the point you're making? I don't understand. the 1% I'm sure would be paying quite a bit more than 50% of the entirety of taxes if it wasn't for tax loopholes ect ect. The higher the tax rate, the higher incentive to find tax loopholes and hoard money offshore.

Of course richer people will own a larger percentage of assets than poorer people, it's what makes them richer people, not poorer people.


Ω wrote:
Arty wrote:The argument "taxing 100,000 from someone who earns 1,000,000 won't affect them that much" is an argument I never understood. Who are you to dictate what percentage of someones own income they have earned themselves through merit is "enough" for them? I agree that 1,000 from someone who earns 1,000 has a much larger affect on them, that's why I believe there should be a high tax threshold and a flat tax rate of 15-20%. I understand tax is necessary but "progressive" tax income isn't fair. the fact the tax system is percentile is what makes it fair, everyone pays the same percentage of their income.

The top 1% pay almost 50% of federal taxes in America. the top 20% pay 83%.

You are right the progressive tax system is economically unfair but it is socially fair.
At face value it looks horribly unfair that the top 1% has to cough up 50% of taxes but in the grand scheme of the country's economy it is necessary. Typically the top 1% only spend about 10-15% of their income meaning the rest is saved in trust funds and overseas bank accounts etc. all these are huge leakages to the economy It's money that is not making its way back into the economy. Now it might still seem unfair that a minority of extremely rich should be the main contributors to tax that effects the majority of the population especially since they earned that money themselves. Wrong. The top 1% wouldn't be rich without the contribution of everyone else in the economy, the thousands they usually employ, the millions who purchase their products etc. So yes it might seem 'unfair' but it is integral to the running of a country and its why the system is used it the majority of nations in the world. I read somewhere that the the top 60 richest people have more money than the poorest 50% I'd say that high tax rate is hardly an inconvenience on them.


I'd say that high tax rate is hardly an inconvenience on them.


This is exactly what I mean, who is anyone to say how much of another persons money can be taken away without inconveniencing them?

Wrong. The top 1% wouldn't be rich without the contribution of everyone else in the economy, the thousands they usually employ, the millions who purchase their products etc.


The economy is circular, you can't say consumers are more important to the rich, or that the rich are more important to the consumers. Without the rich to invest in capital there'd be no jobs for consumers to have and spend their money on necessities and luxuries produced by those producers, which in turn give a return for the rich. They're both integral parts of the system. The rich are rich because (usually) someone in their family or they themselves managed to produce a good or service that was wanted by the population.

Also your point on rich people not spending money, that's down to the economic climate, when interest rates are high then yeah rich people put away their money and don't spend it, but when interest rates are low and investment is more profitable than putting your money away for a whopping 0.1% a year interest or something like that, then money gets invested into the economy. The rich want to invest if it's more profitable for them, and we want the rich to invest to stimulate the economy, so we should make it profitable for the rich to invest in order to provide growth, which is a net good for all.

Your point that "rich people" typically spend "10-15%" of their money doesn't sound like a grounded argument, what's considered rich? 10-15% per year? over their lives?


Say it with me guys, you are not entitled to anyone's money. You are not entitled to benefit off the labour of others. You are not entitled to dictate how much money is "enough" for somebody.
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby freakism » 12th March, 2017, 1:00 pm

You are not entitled to benefit off the labour of others


¿¿¿

Our entire society is built around people benefiting off of the labour of others
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Togetik » 12th March, 2017, 5:41 pm

Arty wrote:1% own 35% of all assets and pay 50% of taxes, what's the point you're making? I don't understand. the 1% I'm sure would be paying quite a bit more than 50% of the entirety of taxes if it wasn't for tax loopholes ect ect.


As of 2014 the wealthiest 0.1% owned the same amount as the bottom 90% and given that they pay half the taxes that seems "fair" (As if wealth inequality has any notion of fairness, or that taxes should rely on "fairness")

Arty wrote:The higher the tax rate, the higher incentive to find tax loopholes and hoard money offshore.


Not really, there's no actual evidence correlating that as far as i'm aware, if you could provide some it'd be useful

Arty wrote:Of course richer people will own a larger percentage of assets than poorer people, it's what makes them richer people, not poorer people.


I don't think you have a great idea on how much wealth disparity having a near 50/50 split between the smallest bracket of the richest rich and the rest of the population is, and how much of a major issue that is.

That's not really what we're talking about in this thread, although it's related, but percentage based tax rates disproportionately affects people with less money than it does those with more and is significantly less "fair" than the current system
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Arty » 15th March, 2017, 3:45 pm

freakism wrote:
You are not entitled to benefit off the labour of others


¿¿¿

Our entire society is built around people benefiting off of the labour of others


Let me correct that to "you are not entitled to benefit off the labour of others for nothing", ignore the main point of that statement and attack the wrongly phrased one that's fine :rofl:



Togetik wrote:As of 2014 the wealthiest 0.1% owned the same amount as the bottom 90% and given that they pay half the taxes that seems "fair" (As if wealth inequality has any notion of fairness, or that taxes should rely on "fairness")


What's inherently wrong with wealth inequality anyway? the wealth that the rich create wouldn't be there otherwise, it's not like they're stealing the wealth of others (for the most part anyway), they create wealth by investing and making a return on their investments, and make up 50% of America's tax revenue. We need to stop trying to bring the rich down, they literally support our economic system.



Togetik wrote:Not really, there's no actual evidence correlating that as far as i'm aware, if you could provide some it'd be useful


This is a basic economic principle and logical fact, Laffer curve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

Togetik wrote:I don't think you have a great idea on how much wealth disparity having a near 50/50 split between the smallest bracket of the richest rich and the rest of the population is, and how much of a major issue that is.


That's not really what we're talking about in this thread, although it's related, but percentage based tax rates disproportionately affects people with less money than it does those with more and is significantly less "fair" than the current system


Again, why is wealth inequality so bad?
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Re: Corporate and personal income taxes

Unread postby Dolly » 24th March, 2017, 5:28 pm



This video does a great job explaining why taxes should be reduced, especially for small businesses. They are important for the economy and reducing their regulations and taxes seems logical.
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