Do you think race determines intelligence?

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Do you think race determines intelligence?

Yes
0
No votes
No
24
86%
Yes to a degree
4
14%
 
Total votes : 28

Re: Do you think race determines intelligence?

Unread postby Togetik » 29th March, 2017, 4:15 am

Pity wrote:Toge, are you really saying that you think there can be no biological factors involved? The most obvious genetic distinction between races is skin color. Hair texture, skull shapes, and penis sizes are also examples of variations amongst the different races; it's fact. So, with this, is it really all that unlikely there could be a genetic difference that affects intelligence?


I should be clear that i'm saying there's no biological component in the context of ethnic groups/race, not that there's no biological components at all- that'd be straight up false.

Genetic conditions such as downs syndrome and environmental factors like foetal alcohol syndrome do affect intelligence by almost every metric that exists to measure it, however this is distinct from the idea of biological attributes in a racial context.

Given the awful history of racial/intelligence links and that fact that all those types of sciences used to do things like justify the holocaust or eugenics movements all across the globe (From the stolen generation to switzerland's mass sterilisations) have been debunked by modern science- the idea that their conclusions would be right but the myriads of methods they had attributed it to were wrong- carries some pretty hefty and awful connotations and has no real evidence backing it up.

The massive diversity in ethnic groups and the lack of actual defined concept of race means that no, there's no racial component.

Even the wording of the question is absolute garbage because assuming there is some kind of magic dumbness genes or magic smartness genes- those are genes that exist outside of a concept of "race". Regardless of what ethnicity you are, you could hold one of these magic genes because there is constant perpetual gene flow across the entire population and it's always been like this, all of the thousands of ethnic groups in africa did not just stick to reproducing with each other and their genes did not remain static and within modern borders, people in Egypt reproduced with people from africa AND people from saudi arabia who reproduced with people from the middle east, who reproduced with people from europe, who reproduced with people from asia, who reproduced with people from indoaustralia.... all of that flow of genetic information and material.



So this entire concept relies on 1): Having a defined concept of intelligence (Which we don't in this thread, or any of Pity's threads) or a standard definition of intelligence (Which we do not have)

2): Having a defined concept of race (Which we do not have in this thread, or any of Pity's threads, despite this being brought up there) or having a standard definition of race (Which we do not really have)

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Re: Do you think race determines intelligence?

Unread postby Dolly » 29th March, 2017, 2:00 pm

I'm not sure.
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Re: Do you think race determines intelligence?

Unread postby Togetik » 30th March, 2017, 7:10 am

Pity wrote:1. How is there no biological context of ethnic groups/race? If there was no genetic variation, we would have very similar skin color, hair color, eye color, et cetera. For example, a frameshift mutation, most common in Ashkenazi Jews, causes an error in the HEXA gene, which leads to Ashkenazi Jews being disproportionately more likely to have Tay-Sachs disease.


Because race is a construct that's incredibly difficult to actually define, genetic variation exists but it doesn't have much to do with ethnic groups or anything. Africa is full of hundreds, if not thousands of different cultural groups that're all genetically different from each other but there's still massive variation within those cultural groups, are they all "african"? Are each cultural group a different ethnic group? Where does the line blur?

Considering your thread used "african people are dumber" as an actual thing you were arguing was based on their genetics, that's just nonsense because of this massive variation and nebulous idea of what "african" even means in the context of race

Pity wrote:2. I am not talking about genetic disorders like Down syndrome. Certain racial and ethnic groups perform much better or worse than others in every metric of intelligence too.


I don't know why you're not talking about them because they're pretty relevant to this discussion but you're also flat out lying, there with the last part because it's not true. Then, you're trying to pull causation meaning causality out of your ass and pretend that this proves that it's genetic and follows Mendelian inheritance

Pity wrote:3. Using the Holocaust as a way to shut down the mere mention of social darwinism is an ad misericordiam argument as you are appealing to pity to discredit me.


No, it's not, it's part of the incredibly relevant history of the idea you're peddling and useful context on why these views aren't mainstream (Because they were, and then the world over people did genocides based on them, and then they found out that all these different things they were using to create a racial hierarchy were bad science and false)

Pity wrote:Also, yes, there exists lots of evidence to support the notorious bell curve and the intelligence gap that shows it is at least partially biological.


No, there literally is not. There's massive amounts of evidence that it doesn't and everyone credible realises that the reason it looks like there's some kind of "inherit dumbness" in whatever racial groups you want to be racist to and pretend you're not is because intelligence tests are culture biased, have no actual definition of "intelligence" to base themselves off of and heavily reliant on pretending that social status has no effect on anything.


Pity wrote:I would like to add that there is lack of studies because of our incredibly sensitive society and political climate.


No, it's because eugenics based ideas like this (Well, literally this) have been long debunked from all the aspects they cropped up from and no one is going to get funded to do research on a debunked topic that's so deeply involved with racist ideas and actual, real life events that were massively harmful to people with the effects of said events still being felt today.

Pity wrote:4. Just because it is difficult to define race does not mean it does not exist. I read a study that showed that offspring are slightly more genetically similar to their fathers, so even in bi-racial cases, they would be more like their paternal race.


Those are... three completely different ideas being presented there? If you can't define it, it can't really exist as described.

I haven't read this one single study that you didn't provide, but the idea a male child would take after his father more makes sense given that the father provides the Y chromosome and everything on it, while females have two X chromosomes. It's sort of the same reason males get colour blindness more, since they don't have a second X to fact check genetic errors.

How this relates to race, rather than a child taking on more traits from one parent than the other, is completely beyond me.

Pity wrote:5. Yes, I agree the question in the title is garbage; remember, I did not author it! No one said there is a "dumbass" or "smartness" gene, but it is foolish to dismiss all the studies that show this gap even at a young age, showing that socioeconomic status has is not the entire cause.


Yeah, all those studies you provided... sure? Regardless, we circle back to "intelligence tests are bullshit, they're culturally biased and don't mean much given that there's no defined intelligence" thing. I don't really get how children aren't affected by socioeconomic status, while they... suddenly do, when they're older?

Pity wrote:Plus, there is still a gap between poor European-Americans and wealthy African-Americans.


Not one you've provided evidence for, and not one that isn't explained by socioeconomic status and the aformented bullshit-ness of intelligence tests

Pity wrote:6. We do not have a generally well-defined measure of intelligence using memory capacity, reaction times, and cognitive reasoning. If we did not, the rankings of intelligence by ethnicity would not correlate with crime nor success.


You are right, we do not have a well defined measure of intelligence, although those things aren't really "intelligence" as a whole (They might be the Cattell intelligence metric though? It's similar enough, but generally that's described as fluid intelligence & crystallized intelligence rather than by what fluid and crystalized refer to).

Rankings of intelligence by ethnicity (Under what scale, who knows, given that you refuse to source yourself) correlating with crime or success doesn't imply causation and very obviously isn't a result of causation.



Fun fact: My University Psychology course has it's main focus on Intelligence and this stuff is a big thing we've been lectured on. I have to write an essay about the lack of link between intelligence and genetics as my assignment for this semester.
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Re: Do you think race determines intelligence?

Unread postby TheBrunswickian » 30th March, 2017, 7:13 am

can we not? this is far too many times in such a short space of my life to witness the same fucking argument rehashed again and again. do you people have nothing better to do with yourselves?
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Re: Do you think race determines intelligence?

Unread postby Togetik » 30th March, 2017, 8:43 am

TheBrunswickian wrote:can we not? this is far too many times in such a short space of my life to witness the same fucking argument rehashed again and again. do you people have nothing better to do with yourselves?


I feel pretty compelled to try and combat people lying on the forums, especially when it's racist lying and it kind of annoys me that we're all ok with this kind of garbage from these kinds of dunces cluttering the forum.

What are new members supposed to think if they look into the forum and see that there's all these threads invalidating people's sexual identity, or their ethnic background and going completely unchallenged? What kind of message does it give to prospective users if we let these sorts of people make these sorts of shitty claims here and don't challenge these trash heaps of opinions every time they pop up?

I feel like as a community manager/member of the community you can understand not wanting to associate this community with Pity/Oigo's anti-trans rants or Pity's fixation on eugenics and racial hierarchy.
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Re: Do you think race determines intelligence?

Unread postby Dolly » 30th March, 2017, 9:19 am

Nah.
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Re: Do you think race determines intelligence?

Unread postby FirePhantom » 30th March, 2017, 10:21 am

Pity wrote:Race is not a construct. How one should eat or sit in a classroom are examples of constructs. If race was one, there would not be such dramatic differences between us. It is just how we evolved. There are multiple ethnic groups in Europe too, such as Saxons and Romans, but they are still part of the white race.

Many who thought and still think there is a "white race" did not and do not think Italian, Slavic, or even Celtic people are part of that race. It is entirely a construct.

There is indeed plenty of genetic variation between the many peoples of the world, but the racial groupings you and most people who use the term "race" make are largely arbitrary and amorphous, with constantly-shifting definitions that vary from person to person and year to year.
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Re: Do you think race determines intelligence?

Unread postby TheBrunswickian » 30th March, 2017, 8:47 pm

Togetik wrote:
TheBrunswickian wrote:can we not? this is far too many times in such a short space of my life to witness the same fucking argument rehashed again and again. do you people have nothing better to do with yourselves?


I feel pretty compelled to try and combat people lying on the forums, especially when it's racist lying and it kind of annoys me that we're all ok with this kind of garbage from these kinds of dunces cluttering the forum.

What are new members supposed to think if they look into the forum and see that there's all these threads invalidating people's sexual identity, or their ethnic background and going completely unchallenged? What kind of message does it give to prospective users if we let these sorts of people make these sorts of shitty claims here and don't challenge these trash heaps of opinions every time they pop up?

I feel like as a community manager/member of the community you can understand not wanting to associate this community with Pity/Oigo's anti-trans rants or Pity's fixation on eugenics and racial hierarchy.

Here is an idea. We've had this argument already. In other threads. We don't need more of them. For future reference, if someone makes a thread like this, can we just not engage. Because then it will die the fuck out
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Re: Do you think race determines intelligence?

Unread postby Oigo » 2nd April, 2017, 8:18 am

Togetik wrote:
TheBrunswickian wrote:can we not? this is far too many times in such a short space of my life to witness the same fucking argument rehashed again and again. do you people have nothing better to do with yourselves?


I feel pretty compelled to try and combat people lying on the forums, especially when it's racist lying and it kind of annoys me that we're all ok with this kind of garbage from these kinds of dunces cluttering the forum.

What are new members supposed to think if they look into the forum and see that there's all these threads invalidating people's sexual identity, or their ethnic background and going completely unchallenged? What kind of message does it give to prospective users if we let these sorts of people make these sorts of shitty claims here and don't challenge these trash heaps of opinions every time they pop up?

I feel like as a community manager/member of the community you can understand not wanting to associate this community with Pity/Oigo's anti-trans rants or Pity's fixation on eugenics and racial hierarchy.

Don't flatter yourself by thinking you've done anything for the community or anyone who uses it with your lunatic posts. You just prove time and time again you have no business posting in the ID forum, and you continue to bring the mods' judgment into question when they continually refuse to ban you from this section of the forum despite the fact that generally every post you make violates the rules of this section. You realize many people (not necessarily on the site, but in general) would find your views reprehensible? What enables you to take the moral high ground? And why haven't you been banned from ID for refusing to engage others' opinions in an intellectual way? Now there's a topic for discussion.

The "lies" Pity posts are actually all factual. I may not agree with his interpretation of those facts, but he most certainly does not spend his time posting things that are not true.
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Re: Do you think race determines intelligence?

Unread postby Togetik » 8th April, 2017, 9:26 pm

Oigo wrote:The "lies" Pity posts are actually all factual. I may not agree with his interpretation of those facts, but he most certainly does not spend his time posting things that are not true.


Did you ignore all those times he lied, misrepresented studies, and made sourcesless claims in pursuit of an idea modern science has completely discredited and is completely disinterested in revisiting

"Interpreting facts to suit your own argument" is uh... pretty much a lie, given that taking conclusions not presented from evidence, and creating links that have no basis to be created given the evidence, are pretty synonymous to lying
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Re: Do you think race determines intelligence?

Unread postby GaycrazyBoi » 8th April, 2017, 10:29 pm

Togetik wrote:
Oigo wrote:The "lies" Pity posts are actually all factual. I may not agree with his interpretation of those facts, but he most certainly does not spend his time posting things that are not true.


Did you ignore all those times he lied, misrepresented studies, and made sourcesless claims in pursuit of an idea modern science has completely discredited and is completely disinterested in revisiting

"Interpreting facts to suit your own argument" is uh... pretty much a lie, given that taking conclusions not presented from evidence, and creating links that have no basis to be created given the evidence, are pretty synonymous to lying


Can we let this die? Like, seriously. I'm supposedly a massive racist and I want this to end. It was funny before, now it's just dumb.
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Re: Do you think race determines intelligence?

Unread postby Oigo » 12th April, 2017, 5:49 pm

Togetik wrote:
Oigo wrote:The "lies" Pity posts are actually all factual. I may not agree with his interpretation of those facts, but he most certainly does not spend his time posting things that are not true.


Did you ignore all those times he lied, misrepresented studies, and made sourcesless claims in pursuit of an idea modern science has completely discredited and is completely disinterested in revisiting

"Interpreting facts to suit your own argument" is uh... pretty much a lie, given that taking conclusions not presented from evidence, and creating links that have no basis to be created given the evidence, are pretty synonymous to lying

Misrepresenting studies and making sourceless claims? I can def think of someone else who does that shit!
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Re: Do you think race determines intelligence?

Unread postby Dolly » 12th April, 2017, 6:00 pm

This doesn't belong in this sub-forum.
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