Islamic Thread

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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Kaspar » 8th May, 2017, 6:31 pm

Pity wrote:
JonathanT88 wrote:
Pity wrote:The culture of the Middle East has almost always been homophobic. Islam, being the most violent of modern religions, dictates the culture in most, if not all, Muslim-majority countries.


Ehhh... wrong.

Medieval Europeans (who burnt gays from time to time) used to look down on Muslims for what they perceived as 'degenerate' homosexual behaviour. The Ottoman Empire only introduced anti-gay laws (where beforehand it was legal and tolerated) under European colonial pressure, and that was in the 19th Century. Christians have consistently been just as dictatorial and oppressive as Muslims, if not more so and modern research suggests there was a booming progressive, radical tradition in Muslim countries.

I don't agree with GayArabStoner, but you're blatantly wrong here Pity.


Pity wrote:modern


Also, the direct, horrifying effects of Christianity subsided centuries ago.


Actually Pity, Jon is probably right, Europe and its culture has always been homophobic too until like what?... 20 years ago? 30?
Plus the fact that Christianity's horrible crimes happened some time ago (and not that far ago to be honest) doesn't mean we're ok to ignore them.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 8th May, 2017, 6:32 pm

Pity wrote:Also, the direct, horrifying effects of Christianity subsided centuries ago.


In historical terms, the modern period began in around the 16th Century. The late-modern term (which I reasonably assumed you were referring to) began in the late-18th/early-19th Century. As I pointed out, Muslim tolerance of gays continued well into the 'modern' period, and there is considerable evidence for progressive and radical intellectual movements during the same era.

Also, you said Muslims had 'always' been homophobic, where I pointed out cases from history where that was clearly not the case.

Christianity only stopped becoming violent when it started being replaced by secularism. It's not that Christianity stopped and developed, but that other ideas came to overwhelm it and 'take it over.' Your emphasis on Christianity vs. Islam should really be on secularism vs. oppressive religion.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Scherzy » 8th May, 2017, 7:01 pm

GayArabStoner wrote:Well a two state solution is one way to do things but i doubt it'll work and i do??? like look at my other posts i acknowledge the fact that Arab society's are flawed but i don't need other people to tell me what i all ready know especially when its got nothing to do with them, that is what i am pissed off about. The people here stretch out their hands with mock sympathy talking about how they just want to help us and how islam is so "violent" and how we are so "oppressed" like no we do not need nor want your opinions that you can give as they are not your people and you suffer no consequences. "the islam we're talking about is not the one you know, its not your family's nor your community's. But it exists" I never denied its existence but the Islam in question is practiced by few you need to understand that, "Also: Homophobia in india and hindu culture isn't so relevant because it's a direct product of British rule, and though that same imperialism in the 19th century did affect conservatism in muslim majority countries, what matters now is that the homophobia/sexism/etc. continues being perpetuated largely by means of islam. Whether you like it or not, islam is used to advocate prejudice and oppression exactly like christianity is" literally tho??? Homophobia and Sexism is still being perpetuated by means of Hinduism like its exactly the same thing ? it is just as relevant and you said it your self islam is "used". "violence has manifested itself in Islam more than any religion" yeah but who's fault is that? All the wars? The systematic genocides? Like ive said this time and time again and i will continuo to do so for the rest of my life , Europe is the source of the majority if not all of the strife in the middle east and as a result you will obviously see an increase in terrorism so maybe when the majority of Christian countries becomes a war zone and millions have died and their resources leached by the rest of the world can you compare the two but it hasn't so you cant??

I'm not good at fancy quoting like jonathan but ill give you an organized and numbered list of points. I suggest you do the same, writing in block paragraphs can be tricky to follow

1. Sure, the two state solution seems impossible with israel's current right wing leadership, but that doesn't mean we should give up fighting for it

2. I think the problem here is that you're skimming our posts and instead assuming we're taking a far more anti-muslim narrative than we actually are.

3. Not Arab communities, Muslim communities. This is equally prevalent in places such as Turkey (and surrounding), north africa, southeast asia, etc.

4. No one is offering sympathy, sincere nor mocking. And this isn't just a muslim issue, this is an issue for the gay community, not just in muslim majority countries but with the increasing influence of radical islam, all over the world. (If you forgot, Orlando did in fact happen).

5. With increasingly interconnected societies and economies, the civil rights of a country's citizens are no longer none of the worlds business. We have every right to discuss, objectively, what stance should foreign people and policy should take on human rights abuses in muslim countries, and its inextricable association with Islam.

6. Radical islam? Yes, practiced by very few. Political and social oppression of sexual, religious and gender minorities? Accepted and propagated by a large majority of countries at hand. As polls, studies, and politics have continually showed us, muslim-majority countries tend to be very homophobic, just as religiously christian majority countries are.

6. As for the Hindu thing, you're correct, I looked into it some more and found that Hinduism is being used to propagate homophobia in India as well. My bad.

7. Violent manifestation of Islam is absolutely a product of western intervention. If you've been reading this thread you should have realized we're all very aware of that. As a result, in the past decades Islam has been essentially weaponized against western culture and unavoidably so, social progression.

8. On that thread, though there have been wars and destruction at the hands of european and american policy in the middle east, there has been no genocide perpetuated by said groups. Genocide and war are very, very different things and you should really understand the word before you use it. And theres no need to say "systematic genocide", genocide is systematic by definition.

9. In conclusion, you're not really wrong about anything nor misinformed. You're reacting very defensively to this thread and honestly, it's understandable. However, this in no way invalidates an important conversation on how Islam is perverted into oppression, its implications to modern society and foreign policy, and future prevention. There is a very deadly problem, western policy in the 19th-21st century is largely at fault, and Islam is the weapon of choice.

10. For same reasons above, I don't really approve of Cxuru's first post for this thread. Scriptural violence is present in all Abrahamic religions, in human history everyone was killing each other so you really cant judge islam by it (it was all the rage), and it doesn't discuss important factors in the radicalization of islam.

It's fucked up and complicated, no one is void of responsibility.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Cxurujeto » 8th May, 2017, 7:20 pm

GayArabStoner wrote:If you are not Muslim then you have no right to critique the religion thats how it goes unless you are a muslim then your opinion is irrelevant.

You don't need to be part of any group to criticize an ideology.

GayArabStoner wrote:I've been looking at the replies on here and some of them are just pure ignorance like if any of you where to do your research you'd find that in fact the majority of muslim countries had no anti lgbt laws and that in the past many of them where more lgbt plus than Europe eg Morocco in the 13th century the Sultans daughter Fatima owned a Hamamm for just Lesbians and gay men were hired to cry at funerals all of this under an islamic Caliph, you can imagine that if this had been Europe it would have been a LOT more negative.

Source?


GayArabStoner wrote:Going back to my earlier point it wasn't until western countries colonised muslim Countries that anti-lgbt laws where put into place by the white man.

Really because the Quran condemns gay people to death. That wasn't written by a white man, and Europe had no presence in Arabia then. According to Islam, it is the word of Allah directly, revealed to Muhammad.
Also just throwing in that Muslims colonized Europe before Europe colonized Muslims


GayArabStoner wrote:I'm not going to deny that homophobia is prevalent in islamic societies but if you're not a muslim or an Arab its really not your business

Have you heard of human rights before? Or empathy. Either way this is an intellectual discussion. If you are here just to say that the rights of LGBT people in foreign countries can't be discussed by us, who are LGBT, then I recommend not coming into this thread again.

GayArabStoner wrote:you think Muslims are out there to get your gay ass? you couldn't be more wrong like we have much better things to do/care about.

Ahem, Chechnya.

GayArabStoner wrote:A lot of people have it confused islam bans gay sex but not actually being gay

Personally I don't that distinction makes even a small difference, and neither do most Muslims apparently.
As Sheikh Fathi Rebai said,
"Listen to this hadith, my brothers. The Prophet Muhammad said: “Whoever you find engaged in sodomy – kill both the man who does it and the man to whom it is done.” I will explain the hadith, so that I am not accused of belonging to ISIS, or of being a criminal, a terrorist, a takfirist, or a supporter of murder. This call to kill both the man who does it and the man to whom it is done is directed at the ruler who rules according to the shari’a. According to shari’a law, in the event of homosexual sex, both the man who does it and the man to whom it is done should die, if the latter has done it out of consent. The verdict for both is execution, because their sick souls cannot be cured. Their cure is execution. This is the verdict of all the Sunni ulema. The only disagreement among the ulema was about the method of execution. According to the Hanafi school, the ruler should give the order for the homosexual to be taken to a high place and thrown off from there, and then to be stoned to death."

GayArabStoner wrote:and four witnesses would need to be present making it near impossible for someone to be actually convicted of the crime now im not saying this is ok in anyway but compared to other religions it was a lot more lax

The fact that you say four people are needed does absolutely nothing in reducing the homophobia. You really think that 4 people all walked in on two guys having sex in each of these cases where gays are stoned or hanged?
More Lax? show me the Jewish countries pushing gays off roofs. Where are the Christian laws in scripture that dictate stoning and shunning homosexuals

GayArabStoner wrote:But does no one get it ??? Yes islam is flawed yes muslim countries are flawed but who does this effect? it effects Muslim gays! not the white guy living in America it effects no one but muslim gays so i pose the same question, what has this got to do with anyone who isnt a muslim gay?

I don't bat an eye in the face of murdering an innocent jsut because they are of a certain religious group. Murder is murder. If the victim is Christian, black, white, it doesn't make a difference. All human life has worth.

GayArabStoner wrote:We choose to identify as muslim gays and it is our right like what is this self entitlement that the majority of white people have where they think their opinions always matters in regards to subjects that do not effect you and thats the big problem here none of you are being effected!

Once again, if you are trying to shut down an intellectual discussion because the people talking are of a certain racial group, you need to leave.
Everyone and anyone can have an opinion.

GayArabStoner wrote:The choices and decisions you make regarding the middle east and its barbaric backward laws effect us not you like Europeans seem to think its their job to liberate people from the chains of ignorance like no we don't want your false sympathy

I'm not European.
A lot of us are not European.

I'm not expressing any sympathy for you in particular, so maybe that's why you think it's false.


GayArabStoner wrote:cause thats what this is people are using our suffering as a front for their ingrained bigotry and xenophobia simple as like 10000% has nothing to do with anyone who isnt a gay muslim if you really cared about us then for starters you'd talk to muslim gays see what you can do to help us

You don't know anything about who we speak to IRL. I suggest not making such assumptions.

GayArabStoner wrote:200 years later Europe is still interfering in the middle east sending down countless bombs and killing millions naturally people cling to religion as its literally all they have left and so extremists are born groups like the Taliban (a result of americas interference, shocker!!!)

Afghanistan is not in the Middle East.
The Taliban formed in in order to remove the Soviets from Afghanistan, that had nothing to to with American interference.

GayArabStoner wrote:are made and an age of ignorance comes about trust me if Europe had never interfered with the middle east you'd find that there wouldn't be nearly so much homophobia ingrained in our societies so to have Europeans then criticise us is nothing but insulting.

That is just speculation, and it isn't founded in facts.
Also once again, I'm not European.

GayArabStoner wrote:"violence has manifested itself in Islam more than any religion" yeah but who's fault is that? All the wars?

Dare I say, Muhammad, who advocated and waged religious war

GayArabStoner wrote:Europe is the source of the majority if not all of the strife in the middle east and as a result you will obviously see an increase in terrorism so maybe when the majority of Christian countries becomes a war zone and millions have died and their resources leached by the rest of the world can you compare the two but it hasn't so you cant??

A lot of Middle Eastern Countries are rolling in petroleum. What are you talking about.
Maybe try blaming terrorists for terrorism next time, instead of scapegoating Europe.

GayArabStoner wrote:Why is there no thread about the displacement of the Palestinian people

:facepalm2: you must be new
also, irrelevant to the current topic

GayArabStoner wrote:Islam does not openly preach homophobia

Re-read the posts in this thread

GayArabStoner wrote:i find it ironic that you now criticise us for the laws you put in place

I haven't put any laws into place anywhere. What do you think I am, a politician?

GayArabStoner wrote:is starting a thread to going to fix anything ?

Probably not, but then again, this is a straw man. I never asserted this thread would change anything.

GayArabStoner wrote:Is criticising the religion i assume most of you barely know anything about changing anything?

Why don't you quit assuming and take the time to read all the posts here that people carefully and thoughtfully wrote out. Then you won't need to assume any of these things that we already clarified.

GayArabStoner wrote:In the words of the prophet "if you have nothing good to say then shut the fuck up".


This statement alone should result in at least a temporary ban from intellectual discussion. Most of your goal here has been to shut down discussion.



Please keep Israel and Palestine out of this thread. It is irrelevant and only serves to derail the thread.

I apologize if some of these quotes are out of order
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Scherzy » 8th May, 2017, 7:29 pm

bennett for christs sake why are you trying to ban him now? you're such a conservative snowflake

I understand where your opinions differentiate, but benjie, i don't think you're taking into account how this kid probably feels attacked right now and just like you probs get triggered when people talk down israel, he's got the right to be upset to. And he's not derailing anything, he's making his case so let him make it instead of attacking him :facepalm2:
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Cxurujeto » 8th May, 2017, 7:48 pm

Scherzy wrote:bennett for christs sake why are you trying to ban him now? you're such a conservative snowflake

Ban him from intellectual discussion, not the website. For trying to shut down intellectual discussion.
Your use of the word snowflake here doesn't make sense. Snowflake encompasses the idea of being unable to cope when an opinion challenges your own. It is characterized by emotional vulnerability. A "special snowflake", or sometimes just "snowflake" is a play on the idea that all snowflakes are unique, in that a snowflake would be someone who dons a bunch of labels and thinks they are so important and everyone cares about their identities. Neither of which are apt to describing me. If anything, they are more apt at describing him, the one who is taking an intellectual discussion personally and expressing emotional vulnerability because people disagree with him.

Scherzy wrote:I understand where your opinions differentiate, but benjie, i don't think you're taking into account how this kid probably feels attacked right now and just like you probs get triggered when people talk down israel, he's got the right to be upset to. And he's not derailing anything, he's making his case so let him make it instead of attacking him :facepalm2:

If he feels attacked by coming into a thread in intellectual discussion and can't help but try to shut it down because he takes it personally, then clearly this isn't the forum board for him. I don't get "triggered", and that is irrelevant, as is Israel. I never said he had didnt have the right to be upset. I said he doesn't have the right to come in here and shut down intellectual discussion. The fact that you made that post is proof that he is derailing the thread.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 8th May, 2017, 7:55 pm

Eh, I'm not a mod anymore Adam so I won't take action myself, but this sub-forum tends to be for sensible (if not intellectual) discussion. Referring to your opponents 'salty ass' as 'spewin shit,' by my reckoning, breaks a few rules.

Benn is conservative but is generally pretty sensible about it, and you really ought to try and represent your side with similar reasonableness.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Cxurujeto » 8th May, 2017, 8:02 pm

GayArabStoner wrote:
Cxurujeto wrote:
GayArabStoner wrote:Damn bitch your ass salty asf now listen here mrs. white mc whitey everything you just said is utter bullshit like 10000% bullshit your ass makes 0% sense and uh you need to leave cause yow ass saltier than a salt bae meme dead ass. For real tho you've gotta learn how to C H I L L im not trying to SHUT DOWN ANYTHING but your ass lmao cause yow ass be spewin so much shit damn lord. But yeah calm dOwn take a chill macaroon ffs and your ass is conservative like ew thats like the dumbest shit ever


Reposting as a quote for posterity.


Gosh you are such a bore are you always this boring??

If it's boring, leave.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby GayArabStoner » 8th May, 2017, 8:06 pm

ConnorM wrote:
GayArabStoner wrote:Damn bitch your ass salty asf now listen here mrs. white mc whitey everything you just said is utter bullshit like 10000% bullshit your ass makes 0% sense and uh you need to leave cause yow ass saltier than a salt bae meme dead ass. For real tho you've gotta learn how to C H I L L im not trying to SHUT DOWN ANYTHING but your ass lmao cause yow ass be spewin so much shit damn lord. But yeah calm dOwn take a chill macaroon ffs and your ass is conservative like ew thats like the dumbest shit ever

This is an intellectual discussion thread. Please treat it as such or refrain from commenting.


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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Dessy » 8th May, 2017, 8:11 pm

It is best not to quote posts like that since it distract too much from the actual topic. @GayArabStoner, please respect the rules of ID and the forum in general. If you disagree, even passionately, don't resort to attacks.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 8th May, 2017, 8:22 pm

Another one of these threads huh. I thought we were all enlightened enough to understand that Islam like other religions has some views and a culture that can be dangerous towards certain groups like woman and gays and needs to rapidly change. I don't exactly see a discussion aside from "Islam is bad because blah blah" and then "Yes but so is Christianity." This doesn't belong in I.D as it only perpetuates the negative atmosphere that has been present in this sub-forum for far too long and the discussion is far from productive, it only acts as a platform for everyone to state already well known opinions.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Pity » 8th May, 2017, 8:50 pm

JonathanT88 wrote:
Pity wrote:Also, the direct, horrifying effects of Christianity subsided centuries ago.


In historical terms, the modern period began in around the 16th Century. The late-modern term (which I reasonably assumed you were referring to) began in the late-18th/early-19th Century. As I pointed out, Muslim tolerance of gays continued well into the 'modern' period, and there is considerable evidence for progressive and radical intellectual movements during the same era.

Also, you said Muslims had 'always' been homophobic, where I pointed out cases from history where that was clearly not the case.

Christianity only stopped becoming violent when it started being replaced by secularism. It's not that Christianity stopped and developed, but that other ideas came to overwhelm it and 'take it over.' Your emphasis on Christianity vs. Islam should really be on secularism vs. oppressive religion.


1. I wouldn't call them :progressive and radical intellectual movements." The wikipedia page says homosexuality was still widely frowned upon despite it occurring and even decriminalized by the Ottomans. I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but it seems most "receivers" of homosexuality were children or slaves, so I would hardly call these relationships "progressive," rather, they were ways to sexually abuse people for power as a guilty pleasure.

2. Christianity seems to stop being "violent" 18th century. Personally, I this attributed to protestantism rather than secularism.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 9th May, 2017, 5:10 pm

Pity wrote:1. I wouldn't call them :progressive and radical intellectual movements." The wikipedia page says homosexuality was still widely frowned upon despite it occurring and even decriminalized by the Ottomans. I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but it seems most "receivers" of homosexuality were children or slaves, so I would hardly call these relationships "progressive," rather, they were ways to sexually abuse people for power as a guilty pleasure.

2. Christianity seems to stop being "violent" 18th century. Personally, I this attributed to protestantism rather than secularism.


Homosexuality being frowned upon despite being decriminalised is significantly better than in the Christian West, where it was both frowned upon and there were state-sanctioned punishments against it. It sounds like the Ottomans took their attitude to homosexuality from the Romans, where there was much the same culture. You can't choose to compare the Middle East and Christendom just went it suits you. As for the intellectual movements, I suggest you take a look at them and the book I linked; when I mentioned them I was not referring specifically to homosexuality, but too the more broader radical/liberal culture which did exist.

That would be the Protestantism which became a 'thing' in the 16th/17th centuries, which was not the main practised religion in both France and Spain, which only had a partial impact on England, and which was (in many cases) much stricter and morally prescriptive than Catholicism (which, for all its flaws, was nowhere near as puritanical and literal in its Biblical interpretation as early Protestantism. I'd argue that the Protestant movements helped enable the rise of secularism and 'progress' (but that would be a very long essay), but not that Protestantism itself entailed a decrease in violence, suffering, and bigotry. You have no idea how ridiculous that belief is.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby ConnorM » 9th May, 2017, 6:58 pm

Pity wrote:1. I wouldn't call them :progressive and radical intellectual movements." The wikipedia page says homosexuality was still widely frowned upon despite it occurring and even decriminalized by the Ottomans. I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but it seems most "receivers" of homosexuality were children or slaves, so I would hardly call these relationships "progressive," rather, they were ways to sexually abuse people for power as a guilty pleasure.

2. Christianity seems to stop being "violent" 18th century. Personally, I this attributed to protestantism rather than secularism.

The Protestants, not the Catholics, were the ones who burned witches. Yeah, no, I'm not going to buy that it was Protestantism that magically stopped Christianity being violent, especially given that half or more of the atrocities committed during the Thirty Years' War were committed by Protestants.
Interestingly enough, I'm actually descended from John Proctor, one of the victims of the Salem Witch Trials. Also interesting, the Catholic Church did not execute people for witchcraft, they executed people who accused other people of witchcraft for heresy, or, if proven to have attempted witchcraft, they executed the attempted witches for heresy. Malleus Maleficarum, the infamous tract written by an inquisitor, was banned by the Catholic Church in 1490, though it continued to be widely read and used as evidence in Protestant witch trials.
Now, in 1635, the Roman Inquisition essentially audited itself, and discovered not a single "legal" witch trial, that is, one in which scientific evidence was given in support of a verdict rather than hearsay. The Inquisition then advised that witch trials were to be treated with extreme caution, and cast doubt as to the veracity of any claims of witchcraft, while also acknowledging that the accusations were prone to abuse for people looking to gain or settle scores.
Despite this, 60 years later, the Protestants were still executing people in North America over witchcraft, using such fantastic logic as "if she sinks, she's innocent, if she floats, she's guilty", well after the Inquisition in Rome had given up torture due to its being unreliable. So, which sect of Christianity caused Europe to stop being violent and superstitious, exactly?
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Cxurujeto » 9th May, 2017, 8:00 pm

JonathanT88 wrote:Benn is conservative but is generally pretty sensible about it, and you really ought to try and represent your side with similar reasonableness.


Off topic but just a quick side note I don't consider myself a Conservative in the political sense
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Togetik » 9th May, 2017, 9:52 pm

Aren't these discussions inherently flawed when they don't include anyone from the group in question? I know we probably don't have anyone from a muslim background on here, but there's enough discussion about these topics from people who are that it's probably more productive than second hand back and forth-ing
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