Judiciary Reform in Poland

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Judiciary Reform in Poland

Unread postby Leftie » 21st July, 2017, 2:59 am

The rulling Law and Justice party is pushing to jam several bills into law. One would force all the nation's top judges to resign, except those it appointed. Another bill already approved by Parliament would ultimately give the government control over who can even be considered for a judgeship.
First vice president of the European Commision Frans Timmermans said: "Each individual law, if adopted would seriously erode the independence of the Polish judiciary... collectively they would abolish any remaining judicial independence and put the judiciary under full political control of the government"

Mr. Kaczynski and other Law and Justice officials contend that opponents are overreacting to an honest attempt by the government to reform a dysfunctional and highly unpopular court system and to root out corrupt judges and liberal ideologues who want to thwart the will of the people.

Law and Justice, Prime Minister Beata Szydlo said, has “stood on the side of the people, and nobody will make us turn back from this way — not even by shouting here and stamping your feet!”

People gather in cities across all the country protesting and calling president Duda for 3 vetos.
I don't really think he will make it, because he proved to be truly weak mentally.

What's your opinion about Polish government's moves over a couple of months?
Do you believe other countries need to be worried, because far right extremists are getting stronger and stronger?
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Re: Judiciary Reform in Poland

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 21st July, 2017, 3:23 am

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Re: Judiciary Reform in Poland

Unread postby Kaspar » 21st July, 2017, 8:43 am

This is just another step that the current ruling party makes to change the county to work the way the want to. The excuse of the need to get rid of corrupt judges is bullshit of course :P PiS has some more time ruling and seeing as the opposition is completely disorganised and ineffective, the party has the winning of the next elections guaranteed in my opinion. Jarosław Kaczyński was always the more liberal one, from the two brothers, while Lech was more socialistic. After Lech's death, Jarosław clearly used the populist slogans and programs like 500+, Mieszkani+ etc. to win the election. The common people do not look further than the vision of having extra 500 złoty every month from the government (which is about 120 euros btw) is so much more appealing to common folks than for example lowering the taxes for the same amount. This is why the party has gained the majority in the parliament and the actions they take, the changes in Trybunał Konstytucyjny, the changes in the highest court that are being done right now, are here to further ensure that the power remains in their hands.
What will probably happen is people will shout, protest, but after some time all will be back to normal and everyone will forget about the case (as it happened with the numerous previous scandals). As long as they will receive physical money straight to their hand, every month, PiS will have high approval rates anyway.
Unfortunately, the only people who vote for PiS are either the nationalistic conservative, or the religious. This gives them a solid voter base in our country. Everyone else is enraged, but there is no clear solution to the problem as it seems for now. :dunno:
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Re: Judiciary Reform in Poland

Unread postby Kaspar » 21st July, 2017, 8:49 am

The worst thing is that these internal changes and reforms harm not only us, Poles, but they harm our international reputation severely. The EU states have already declared that if the reform is fully passed, there will be sanctions and penalties. The general view in the PiS's main voter base is highly anti-EU anyway so they don't care about any threats that are being made by the EU officials. This situation of worsening our international relations is highly stupid and scary :rip:
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Re: Judiciary Reform in Poland

Unread postby Pity » 21st July, 2017, 11:56 am

I do not know much at all of the situation even after reading a lot of articles. I am also a little skeptical of any potential biases the mainstream media has in said article.

However, with what I have read so far, I disagree with both bills almost entirely. I do not think the judiciary branch should be totally independent, though. Additionally, I think it is wrong for the European Commission to involve itself because of Polish sovereignty.
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Re: Judiciary Reform in Poland

Unread postby Vortex » 22nd July, 2017, 12:52 pm

Mr. Kaczynski and other Law and Justice officials contend that opponents are overreacting to an honest attempt by the government to reform a dysfunctional and highly unpopular court system and to root out corrupt judges.

In theory I could get behind this.
and liberal ideologues who want to thwart the will of the people

But not this. Not now, not ever. If Poland is anything like America, the job of the judiciary is to interpret the laws. I would not have been upset if the Supreme Court had ruled that banning gay marriage did not violate the US constitution, because I always thought their reasoning was shaky. But the will of the people does not mean jack shit. That's why we have judges and not just politicians. As I said, the judge's role is to interpret the law. There have been several times the Supreme Court made conservative rulings that I didn't are for.

Pity wrote:I think it is wrong for the European Commission to involve itself because of Polish sovereignty.

But at what point do you step in against a nation's sovereignty? If we see a state doing something we know is wrong, are we not obligated to try and intervene? Sovereignty is important, yes, but this is something that will harm the Polish people, being imposed by them upon the government. How far do we let that go before we weigh in in an official capacity?
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Re: Judiciary Reform in Poland

Unread postby Erebos » 22nd July, 2017, 2:05 pm

This is a pretty serious issue since from the way I see it it is just a complete disregard of the trias politicas. Basically the steps to dictatorships. So I do think the Eu is right to intervene because of this. I havent read much into this subject though so I might completely have it wrong.
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Re: Judiciary Reform in Poland

Unread postby Pity » 22nd July, 2017, 2:55 pm

Vortex wrote:But at what point do you step in against a nation's sovereignty? If we see a state doing something we know is wrong, are we not obligated to try and intervene? Sovereignty is important, yes, but this is something that will harm the Polish people, being imposed by them upon the government. How far do we let that go before we weigh in in an official capacity?


The government isn't rounding up people to kill or subjugating people as second-class citizens. This is just bad legislation. I don't think it will cause some detrimental crisis even if it goes through.
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Re: Judiciary Reform in Poland

Unread postby Kaspar » 22nd July, 2017, 4:21 pm

The reform has been quickly approved by the parliament (where the ruling party holds the majority of seats) and there was a long discussion in the Senate, but it was approved by Senate too during the night. Now the reforms are going to go to the president to sign them, he might use his power to decline or propose changes to the reform. He says he finds them contradicting to the constitution and that he "has already decided what he is going to do". Yet he doesn't share, so we have to wait and see. The chances that the president will put any major changes here is dim though, as he was starting for the office from the ruling party. In THEORY the president does not belong to any political party, but he has been already influenced by the current ruling party numerous times before, so I don't see why it shouldn't happen again. The conclusion is - this reform is generally in already.
The United Stated have declared the official position about it, that says that the reform is a step back in democracy and is against common people's interest (more or less). The Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs replied that "The reform is still being worked on and there is no point in judging it's form yet."
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Re: Judiciary Reform in Poland

Unread postby Kaspar » 22nd July, 2017, 4:26 pm

Pity wrote:
Vortex wrote:But at what point do you step in against a nation's sovereignty? If we see a state doing something we know is wrong, are we not obligated to try and intervene? Sovereignty is important, yes, but this is something that will harm the Polish people, being imposed by them upon the government. How far do we let that go before we weigh in in an official capacity?


The government isn't rounding up people to kill or subjugating people as second-class citizens. This is just bad legislation. I don't think it will cause some detrimental crisis even if it goes through.


And I agree with that. It has already happened in the past, when the ruling party politicized the Constitutional Court. The protests were huge, the shouting was loud, the democracy and country was falling apart... But it didn't. People seem to forget about it. It doesn't affect them directly and this is why it is not noticable. What will happen with this reform is probably the same thing. Another step to destabilizing the country that will be forgotten in few months. The moment the Polish people will all finally go and protest, is the moment they will not have anything to put into their mouth that day. Untill then - the ruling party will get by with almost anything.
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Re: Judiciary Reform in Poland

Unread postby boiii » 24th July, 2017, 1:09 pm

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