How many genders?

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How many genders are there?

2
17
65%
3
4
15%
>3
5
19%
 
Total votes : 26

How many genders?

Unread postby Peekaboo » 6th August, 2017, 9:47 pm

Ok, so ignoring the slightly clickbait subject line i'm curious to hear you guys' opinions on this.

How many genders would you say there are?
Is this strictly a medical subject or should sexuality be a part of the equation?

Being someone of science, i think that this is just a problem of definitions, i think 'gender' is the wrong word to use when describing your sexuality and hence we have a lot more genders than makes sense...

I'm not saying anyone isn't right to their own preferences by any means, just that its a sexual preference and not separate gender.

Disclaimer: I believe everyone is right to their own sexual preferences and that they should be allowed to express that as they please. But i also believe that theres a lot of unnecessary confusion out there at the same time.
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Ubiquitous » 7th August, 2017, 5:45 am

Well, first of all we should define gender. Is gender defined by what you have between your legs? And if it is, can it be changed or does is stick with you from your birth? Do you define gender yourself depending how you feel about yourself? If yes, what if one day you feel like you're a guy, next day a women and another day guy again? Is that possible and would it argue with the definition of gender? We can also discuss gender when it comes to cultural roles in society. So what do you mean by gender?
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Togetik » 7th August, 2017, 5:48 am

An infinite number of progressively more arbitrary genders outside of the societally established binary
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Peekaboo » 7th August, 2017, 11:45 am

Ubiquitous wrote:Well, first of all we should define gender. Is gender defined by what you have between your legs? And if it is, can it be changed or does is stick with you from your birth? Do you define gender yourself depending how you feel about yourself? If yes, what if one day you feel like you're a guy, next day a women and another day guy again? Is that possible and would it argue with the definition of gender? We can also discuss gender when it comes to cultural roles in society. So what do you mean by gender?

My argument is a technical one, so we will use the dictionary definition.
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This is sort of what I'm trying to say, the first thing you ask is how i define gender. True, everyone has their own interpretations, but i'd say that redefining a word is not necessary since we are really discussing sexuality. Gender and sexuality are not necessarily the same thing.
Gender in my mind is more of the official statement, if you have male genitals it doesn't make you any less entitled to feel feminine and vice versa. And anyone in a transitioning state genuinely becomes the gender that they are transitioning to, so a male becomes female post-op and vice versa.

Your sexuality and sexual identity however can be much more flexible, varying through a whole range of aspects as you can see everyday.

So no, i wouldn't say there is a conflict between your questions and the definition of gender since they have very little to do with each other. I wouldn't like to go into cultural roles since that topic often hits a roadblock and noting constructive is discussed
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Dolly » 7th August, 2017, 11:49 am

I think that scientific facts have thoroughly answered this question. That is all I will say.
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Peekaboo » 7th August, 2017, 11:56 am

Pity wrote:I think that scientific facts have thoroughly answered this question. That is all I will say.

That's very ambiguous :P
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Adyuto » 7th August, 2017, 3:08 pm

When we took a human geography class the first thing we learned while discussing demography was the difference between sex and gender. Biologically speaking there are only two sexes, gender on the other hand is more complex due to it being a cultural phenomena. I personally believe that the only genders are male, female, and non-binary. A prime example of how gender can be influenced by culture is the difference between the everyday life of a woman in America and one in rural Sub-Saharan Africa. A significant amount of woman in rural Sub-Saharan Africa are known to manage and maintain the land used for agriculture, and to manage (though not own) the businesses that dispense these goods. Anyone living in a western society, if they were not informed of the sex of the person just mentioned would have presumed that she was in fact a male. If we were to take a look at the everyday life of the average American woman , where many are employed outside of the home and spend a significant amount of time away from their home, a rural Sub-Saharan African individual would presume that the person mentioned was in fact a male due to the fact that many males inhabiting that kind of geography tend to adopt lifestyles similar to that. A person who might adopt a lifestyle syncretic of these two would most likely be classified as non-binary by both western and Sub-Saharan populations .In regards to gender's relation with sexuality, the two terms are not interchangeable. In any one of those example, if you were to omit the sexuality of the individual it would still be possible to make a gender identification. If you omitted the non-romantic lifestyle of individuals you would be able to make an accurate assessment of an individual's sexuality.

P.S: sorry for the lengthy or possibly confusing response...
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Peekaboo » 7th August, 2017, 5:50 pm

Adyuto wrote:When we took a human geography class the first thing we learned while discussing demography was the difference between sex and gender. Biologically speaking there are only two sexes, gender on the other hand is more complex due to it being a cultural phenomena. I personally believe that the only genders are male, female, and non-binary. A prime example of how gender can be influenced by culture is the difference between the everyday life of a woman in America and one in rural Sub-Saharan Africa. A significant amount of woman in rural Sub-Saharan Africa are known to manage and maintain the land used for agriculture, and to manage (though not own) the businesses that dispense these goods. Anyone living in a western society, if they were not informed of the sex of the person just mentioned would have presumed that she was in fact a male. If we were to take a look at the everyday life of the average American woman , where many are employed outside of the home and spend a significant amount of time away from their home, a rural Sub-Saharan African individual would presume that the person mentioned was in fact a male due to the fact that many males inhabiting that kind of geography tend to adopt lifestyles similar to that. A person who might adopt a lifestyle syncretic of these two would most likely be classified as non-binary by both western and Sub-Saharan populations .In regards to gender's relation with sexuality, the two terms are not interchangeable. In any one of those example, if you were to omit the sexuality of the individual it would still be possible to make a gender identification. If you omitted the non-romantic lifestyle of individuals you would be able to make an accurate assessment of an individual's sexuality.

P.S: sorry for the lengthy or possibly confusing response...


No problem, i welcome a lengthy response :P

Interesting, I agree with you on a lot of that actually and i'll be the first to admit that my view isn't entirely accurate in this light.

However, I'm curious how you would describe the gender roles? As in modern society the term seems redundant to me since we live in a non binary system (at least how i understand it). This raises other questions for me also, such as how would this fit in with the media's depiction of gender equality since technically a man could fill the shoes of a woman and vice versa in a non binary system. it seems like the term is being used incorrectly in a lot of situations

An example of what i mean comes back Sex and Gender not being interchangeable as you said above, we talk of a gender pay gap where as it would be more accurately a pay gap between the sexes.
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Adyuto » 7th August, 2017, 8:59 pm

I personally believe that gender roles continue to exist because existing societal institutions continue to perpetuate beliefs about how members of sexes should act. They neglect the idea of non-binary gender identification and as a result they still utilize and popularize gender roles/expectations. I personally see this happening more in places/cultures where religion has a strong influence on the population. For example, in modern popular American culture, where religion isn't such an integral part of said culture, gender roles are slowly becoming obsolete, and you see this manifest itself in it becoming more acceptable for males to wear female style clothing. Compare this, let's say to popular Caribbean culture, where religion continues to heavily impact the culture, and you see institutions establishing gender roles.

I really think that most instances the media incorrectly uses gender inequality in lieu of sex inequality. Like you said the pay gap between biological males and biological females is an instance in which there is sexual inequality more than gender inequality. An opposite example of that may be where adopting a feminine character or identifying as female, means that you must be subservient to a male. For example being a "fem" gay might bring expectations that you must be subservient to or in some way less capable than a "mass" gay.

It would be interesting to see how problems like this evolve considering that we are starting to become a non-binary society.
(Also, sorry if none of that made sense) :)
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Togetik » 8th August, 2017, 8:54 am

Pity wrote:I think that scientific facts have thoroughly answered this question. That is all I will say.


Being perfectly aware you're conflating gender with sex, that's still like.... three, four or five right? Biological sex is, despite common whines to the contrary, not a binary at all.


Anyway, to answer this question for real you'd have to define gender, is it a collection of traits/behaviours assigned a title through society? Is it an expression of an individual's identity? Is it a title given to someone who fulfils specific roles in society? A lot of non-western cultures have a lot of different genders that're sort of hard to define in western terms, but are they "valid" for this discussion?

I don't really think those questions have actual answers and if they do then it kind of reduces the scope of the discussion to the point that it's so narrow as to be not super meaningful
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby TheBrunswickian » 8th August, 2017, 9:10 am

ohhhhh boy here we go.

there are two sexes, gender is otherwise. thats me, bye
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby boiii » 8th August, 2017, 9:18 am

Everyone can say what they wanna say and identify themselves however they want.

-This does not mean that they deserve (extra) respect*.
-This does not mean that they deserve extra rights.
-This does not mean that they are bad people and/or idiots.
(imo)
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Togetik » 8th August, 2017, 9:30 am

TheBrunswickian wrote:there are two sexes, gender is otherwise. thats me, bye


I mean... not really? Things like intersex conditions, chimerism, developmental/genetic things that cause XX people to develop physiologically as men or XY people to develop physiologically as women or I guess people who're XXY or XXX

And even outside those, sex-determination systems are a giant mess all over the web of life as we learn more and more about genetics and animals and people. There's birds with four genders (Three "male types" that're behaviourally and physiologically distinct and the "female type" that does exactly what you'd expect), and there's a type of fish that uses both the XY and ZW sex determination chromosomes in the same population interchangeably, effectively giving the species four sexes that breed interchangeably

It's all a complicated mess and there's no real hard and fast rules about this stuff
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Ubiquitous » 8th August, 2017, 11:53 am

I guess people who're XXY or XXX


XXY is physiologically male and XXX female
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Peekaboo » 8th August, 2017, 12:31 pm

Togetik wrote:
Pity wrote:I think that scientific facts have thoroughly answered this question. That is all I will say.


Being perfectly aware you're conflating gender with sex, that's still like.... three, four or five right? Biological sex is, despite common whines to the contrary, not a binary at all.

I disagree with this, now I'm not an expert but i'd say biological sex with means of reproduction between humans is binary.
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Peekaboo » 8th August, 2017, 12:36 pm

Adyuto wrote:I personally believe that gender roles continue to exist because existing societal institutions continue to perpetuate beliefs about how members of sexes should act. They neglect the idea of non-binary gender identification and as a result they still utilize and popularize gender roles/expectations. I personally see this happening more in places/cultures where religion has a strong influence on the population. For example, in modern popular American culture, where religion isn't such an integral part of said culture, gender roles are slowly becoming obsolete, and you see this manifest itself in it becoming more acceptable for males to wear female style clothing. Compare this, let's say to popular Caribbean culture, where religion continues to heavily impact the culture, and you see institutions establishing gender roles.

I agree with you, you've essentially elaborated on what i had said above :P
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Peekaboo » 8th August, 2017, 12:42 pm

Togetik wrote:
TheBrunswickian wrote:there are two sexes, gender is otherwise. thats me, bye


I mean... not really? Things like intersex conditions, chimerism, developmental/genetic things that cause XX people to develop physiologically as men or XY people to develop physiologically as women or I guess people who're XXY or XXX

And even outside those, sex-determination systems are a giant mess all over the web of life as we learn more and more about genetics and animals and people. There's birds with four genders (Three "male types" that're behaviourally and physiologically distinct and the "female type" that does exactly what you'd expect), and there's a type of fish that uses both the XY and ZW sex determination chromosomes in the same population interchangeably, effectively giving the species four sexes that breed interchangeably

It's all a complicated mess and there's no real hard and fast rules about this stuff

I think you are generalising what is a select few cases and applying them to the masses.
Human sexes, when developing and operating how they evolved to work are in a binary state. Other species develop their own systems but are not compatible with our own and thus it is not appropriate to compare them as such.
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Peekaboo » 8th August, 2017, 12:48 pm

Togetik wrote:An infinite number of progressively more arbitrary genders outside of the societally established binary

So you're saying and that there is an infinite number of genders progressively becoming more random as we get further from the traditionally established two?
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby Togetik » 9th August, 2017, 3:13 am

Ubiquitous wrote:XXY is physiologically male and XXX female


That's why it was "i guess", because these are still incredibly vague terms if we're going with genetically not being male/female but physiologically being male/female and that being their biological sex

Peekaboo wrote:I disagree with this, now I'm not an expert but i'd say biological sex with means of reproduction between humans is binary.


That means you have to define sex in terms of reproduction, which doesn't really fit as a solid rule because of how messy the whole thing is

Peekaboo"
I think you are generalising what is a select few cases and applying them to the masses.
Human sexes, when developing and operating how they evolved to work are in a binary state. Other species develop their own systems but are not compatible with our own and thus it is not appropriate to compare them as such.[/quote]

I don't really get this, when talking about the definition of biological sex isn't it relevant to mention how biological sex is messy to define and has so many outliers ect that the (not really binary) binary of "this is male and this is female, that's hermaphroditic and that's it" can't and shouldn't be applied as a universal rule (And I don't think it is on higher levels?)

[quote="Peekaboo wrote:
So you're saying and that there is an infinite number of genders progressively becoming more random as we get further from the traditionally established two?


Sort of but not really, there's a theoretically infinite number of genders people can identify as that become less.... socially relevant? Outside of common ones, like if i personally defined my gender as a word I made up to explain my gender identity, while that'd have meaning to me it doesn't have meaning the same way "I identify as male/female/gender neutral" does, I don't think that really makes my own custom gender less valid but it makes it less useful as a term.

I mean, gender fluid is considered a gender despite being an expression/description of gender identity and sort of becomes a catch all of gender that falls under it's broad definition
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Re: How many genders?

Unread postby (un)creative » 16th August, 2017, 5:03 pm

There's this nice wonderful thing called science, that proves the "only two genders" thing. I'm not gonna ignore facts just because someone "feels" something different.
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